Monday, October 02, 2006

Love is Love

The comments I received on my previous post were so interesting, with so many different views –mostly supportive which I want to thank everyone for. Fewer derogatory comments have been made (and you know I love viewing the people who think differently) but instead, I received quite a few opposing emails. Again, Mr. Anonymous has risen to the occasion to write me yet another heart-felt email.

But first, I want to display “Sometimes Saintly Nick’s” comment as my post for today.
“Mr. Anonymous’ theology is as poor as his Biblical exegesis, which is in reality isogesis. Here are a few comments on Leviticus 18:22:The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts, specifically anal sex. The issue was penetrating an anus with a penis, this making the penis literally “unclean” to the point of forbidding entry into a vagina. I wonder if the same prohibition would not also apply to male/female anal sex?Using the word "homosexuality" in some English translations makes the text appear to condemn lesbian activity as well. The latter behavior is definitely not mentioned in the original Hebrew text of this passage. In fact, lesbian behavior is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.The term "homosexuality" has two distinct meanings in English. Sometimes it refers to sexual behavior (what some people do). Sometimes it relates to sexual orientation (what some people are). One reader might conclude from an English translation that homosexual orientation is criticized in the Bible; others might assume that homosexual behavior is criticized. However, the word "homosexual" was first used in the very late in 19th century C.E. There was no Hebrew word that meant "homosexual." Thus, whenever the word is seen in an English translation of the Bible, one should be wary that the translators might be inserting their own prejudices into the text."

Now, this is the whole entire thing I’ve been trying to get across as far as ‘interpretation’ of homosexuality as opposed to promiscuity. The ‘act’ of anal sex was considered dirty and unclean; in fact it still is---in the technical sense. What people do behind closed doors is none of my business anyway.

Mr. Anonymous emailed me again, with comments and questions that were a bit unnerving. He even sent me a photo of him, claiming his name (which I will not reveal) trying to convince me I can change. I love it when men try to do this! And by the way, he is a very good looking young man, but he seems too ‘brainwashed’ for me. Here are some things he has written to me that I am copyied and pasted. I would show the entire email, but it’s too long, and too redundant of what I’m trying to get across. (His typos were plentiful, which takes up way too much time to correct for him…)

Mr. Anonymous: You live with your partner and you claim it's love.........When you get older what then? It's sad that you will pass up a life where you can claim children that have your blood and your DNA to see them run around and play with their little cousins and etc.......And for what? To be with the same sex and have nothing that belongs to you that’s your own flesh where they will continueto live your legacy?

Deb: And, as far as my partnership with the woman that I am with-----we plan to live our lives vacationing, having fun, working and enjoying life. We do not plan to have children. We could, however, adopt or go to other options such as artificial insemination...but we have so many relatives, nieces and nephews that we call our own. We're happy with that. There are many heterosexual couples who cannot have babies due to complications. Do you think heterosexual couples who adopt or choose not to reproduce are living a bad life?

Mr. Anonymous: I have no right to tell you that you’re going to Hell, but you sure are knocking at it's doors. You and your partner don't really care for each other, you just care to explore your temptations to see where it leads you.

Deb: Exploring temptations is one thing—but being in a relationship with a woman I love is another. I am not “exploring”, I did that in my late teens to early twenties. And no, I do not regret exploring, it was part of my past. I truly believe that the church that you go to has something to do with this ‘brainwashing’ attitude you put forth.

Mr. Anonymous: And do yourself a favor and get out of a Catholic church. Because you don't learn anything exception to tradition. You need to go to a church where GOD's presence is strong, and then you will hear his real voice call to you and you will know that what you are doing is very displeasing in his eyes.

Deb: First of all, I do not go to a Catholic church. I go to an Assembly of God---a born again Christian church. (Not sure why he thinks I still go to a Catholic Church after my other post!)

Mr. Anonymous: You asked, “Do you feel if a man marries a divorcee ( a woman who was married previously ) that God is okay with that?" Yes I do. Because GOD is a forgiving GOD and merciful.Not everyone is perfect, and GOD did make a man forevery woman and vice versa. That was why he removed a rib from Adam, to make a suitable partner. My mom got divorced when I was three, my brother four, and my sister five. My real father left us and ran out, he messed around with another woman, he did drugs and etc. My mom was left with three kids all by herself, but she never gave up on GOD. 5 years later, another man came into her life. He is now who I call a father, and even though they have their moments of disagreements and etc. They love each other, and I know that he will not be leaving anytime soon. Where does it say in the bible that marrying a divorcee is a sin?

Deb: I’m sorry that you went through that. Your mother has a lot of courage. In the bible, (and I do agree with you by the way) it says, "Matthew 5:31 You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce. But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Look it up. And, it's written in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.

Mr. Anonymous: You are knowledgeable in the word, but your own interpretations are tactless when it comes to talking to a strong Christian who knows the difference between something morally right and wrong. I'm not young and naive. You are very judgmental and you twist the blame on others. That’s your weapon to fight off those who say that your lifestyle is wrong. But you are only leaving yourself open for a person like me to see that you are falling. I don't care about your lifestyle with your partner. To me thats an abomintaion, sick, immoral and anything in that genre. I don't care how many years you have, because either way, it's wrong. (Now I'm being judgemental!) I can only imagine what God will tell you on that day when you see the gates of Heaven. Because my words are nothing compared to his. And you can't compare yourself with me, because at least I understand and follow the laws of marriage between one man and one woman. As mentioned in the Bible by GOD himself. The laws of marriage remain, it's in both the New and Old Testament.

Deb: Love is love. Homosexuality in my opinion as well as beliefs is misinterpreted. So, if you want to debate homosexuality, and you are so passionate about your beliefs about marrying a divorcee, then you may want to evaluate which sin is worse. To me, you pick and choose your sin. It’s hypocritical. I can sit here and bash your mother for being a divorcee, but I won’t, because she had to do what she had to do… I don’t think badly of her. Does the “bible” consider it adultery? Yes. Can it be interpreted wrongly? I strongly believe so. As “Sometimes Saintly Nick” stated, “The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts, specifically anal sex. The issue was penetrating an anus with a penis, this making the penis literally “unclean” to the point of forbidding entry into a vagina.” We’re talking about the ‘acts’ of homosexuality and the promiscuous aspects of it. Love is love. Two men who love one another and two women who love one another is a beautiful thing—when in a healthy relationship—just as heterosexuals. Picking and choosing sins, especially trying to debate ‘adultery’ vs. homosexuality that is listed in the Ten Commandments does not hold a strong argument.

In closing, I just want to state that people who are constantly criticizing and judging one another for each other’s sin—it’s pointless. There are many interpretations and beliefs—even within one religion. You cannot change someone’s thoughts, unless they are weak in faith, nor can you tell “facts” about a faith, because that’s what it’s all about----“faith”. If you have a spiritual encounter with God, as I claim, it’s still about faith—but it made my faith much stronger. I could have been hallucinating or you could claim that the Ketel One martinis got to my head—whatever it was—to me it was real. But I cannot convince anyone else that it was. This is me.

This is how I feel, how I view God, how I love God, and how I love others who are different from me. I saw comments that said, “Well, why don’t I just marry my dog,” or “I might as well ask my cat to marry me too!” These remarks are ignorant, and uncalled for. There is nothing wrong with love between two consenting adults. And I emphasize on “two consenting adults”---whether two males, two women or a male and female. This has nothing to do with bestiality, incest, or pedophilia. If you cannot determine the difference, then you’re minds are very closed.

Love is love.


Bossy♥'s YOU said...

i think mr annymous has a crush on deb:)

The Rev. Dr. Kate said...

BRAVO, Deb! Love is love and that is the great commandment that Jesus gave us "love one another." Love which helps us grow and become the person God intended for us to be is good and perfect gift. If we are fortunate enough to find the person who love us and whom we can love, then we thank God for that love - we don't exploit it, we don't force it where it doesn't exist and we don't have to pretend. You found a love with a woman who has clearly helped you to grow and nurtured your faith as you have done for her. None of us have the right to judge that. And I wish that the church could truly celebrate that love as we celebrate heterosexual love. Stay strong in your faith and in your love. Both are blessings not only to you, but to all of us.

J R Estelle said...

I don't think my comments are sticking to your blog. :(

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Deb, he still thinks you are of the Catholic persuasion, because of your question on divorce and marriage between divorcees.
Incidentally his prejudices against 'catholicism' sound stronger than his other prejudices.

Interesting that you quote that buggery & sodomy are 'unclean' acts

And quite right that you note that having children isn't the purpose of life (for all women) nor a guarantee to blissful old age.

Relationships with Nephews, nieces, and indeed the children of others can be just as meaningful as those with one's own children. I can see how some women in modern society might see that having children is not necessary to fulfill their life, or desirable for one's figure, health - and the obvious limits it places on one's freedoms

Though I would perhaps prefer to raise my 'own flesh & blood' I'd like to think they would not prejudice me against the children of others, something most parents almost always do is place 'their' children and their rights and privileges above the rights of others ...

QUASAR9 said...

And now at the risk of crossing the line, let me just add if only to clarify my sexual preferences:
"Should you ever choose to 'have' children, I'd be more than willing and honoured to be a healthy donor by the more natural method, should you be so inclined"

I'd prefer if you reserve this comment for personal reflection, rather than public viewing.

TrappedInColorado said...

Well... this just give credance to my belief that the Bible is the most singularly evil weapon of mass destruction every contrived. It is insidiously clever in it's paradoxes. The room for opposing interpretations, which each side believes is right and straight from God, is the kiss of death for humanity. It's not only the Bible, but the Torah and Koran also. Millions have died throughout history due to the interpretations of those books. Yes, that will make them the biggest weapons of mass destruction in history. There is no room for interpretation of that statement. History validates it. If people would live and let live and stop acting as God's judge here on earth then that would not be true. However, humanity is not capable of that. Judge ideas, not people. Hate the sin, not the sinner. The human psyche makes that impossible.

Done venting... stepping off the soap box.


Maddie said...

Deb, I am truly moved by your most excellant post. Love is love, no matter the gender. When will people move past this concentration on the homosexual aspect of this. Love is love and marriage is commitment between consenting adults regardless if gay or not. It us magnificent treasure, one that silver and gold pales against. For when you have found it, it shines through all doubt and darkness, this has everything to do with faith.

"It is God Himself who has made us what we are." Ephesians 2:10

Love is a blessing and a treasure to behold.

A celebration indeed!

say it hot said...

We all take different paths through this life. Regardless of religion, some will take the journey alone while others will take it in a loving relationship. That relationship could be a marriage or some other type of commitment.

Those who feel so strongly about the paths that others are choosing should reflect on their own choices and their own paths - it can help them to understand more about the world and the people who are sharing it with them.

The reason we have such ugly events like the holocaust, war, etc. in our worldwide shared history is because so many people don't realize that God's love comes in so many different shapes, sizes, colors, ideas, and personalities.

His love is infinite.

Trying to measure God's love puts limits on Him - and He is limitless. He gives us limitless possibilities...would Mr. Anonymous want to stiffle God's plans for us?

On an unrelated note, My word verification was: vidoftka...Looks like Russian to me! Does that mean videos and vodka for after work?

samuru999 said...

As always, you make me feel so
wonderful with your posts!
You are an inspiration
to me...and you know I really mean
Love is a blessing!
And you are a blessing!

GW Mush said...

1)Sprinkles Holy Water on Mr Anonymous.

2) prays to subdue Quasar's erection for Deb:)

3)Blesses our daily food, your spinach is safe to eat now

~Deb said...

It totally baffles me when people bring up the argument of ‘you can’t have kids if you’re gay’. In my opinion, it’s totally ignorant knowing what kind of options are out there. Personally? I’d rather have a pet fish for now.

The narrow-mindedness of a lot of Christians has me wondering how they treat others in real life. Do they act this way out in the real world? Or do they stay under the hidden blanket of anonymity, hoping no one finds out who they really are? I can’t see this type of thinking to be acceptable in society, other than being apart of the KKK or some radical Christian extremist group.

They view gays and lesbians the same as pedophiles, people who engage in bestiality and incest. How ignorant can someone be to not know the difference between two adults loving one another, and the act of all the other things I mentioned above? Fine, you think homosexuality is a sin---that’s okay. But when you start calling out references to other acts of hurting others and animals, how can you even view that as the same as two women loving and caring for one another or two men making a commitment?

“…Interesting that you quote that buggery & sodomy are 'unclean' acts.”

The only reason why I say this, and Saintly Nick says this, is because anal sex is unclean. The bacteria levels found in a rectum are unsafe to a man’s genitalia. It’s just scientific facts.
This also applies to heterosexual couples as well. It’s important to use safe protection while doing this. Is this for me? No. But for some people---it’s what they like. It’s none of my business.

And, I apologize if my blog is eating up your comments...I've had a few emails telling me how much they wrote, and then *poof*----they're entire comment was gone. Not sure what's going on with blogger. Thanks for all your feedback!

~Dawn said...

"You are knowledgeable in the word, but your own interpretations are tactless when it comes to talking to a strong Christian who knows the difference between something morally right and wrong. I'm not young and naive. You are very judgmental and you twist the blame on others."

He feels threatened because his feelings of "strong christianness" have been questioned on the divorce issue.

To take the bible as literal as he does, means his Mother would be a sinner - And if God forgives his mother than God would have to forgive a lot of other things he can't forgive

Deb- your patience is inspiring. You had said at an earlier time you hope this blog would be beneficial to someone, well consider myself. Your character and fruits of the spirit are an inspiration to me and are helping me be strong as well. THANK YOU!

~Deb said...

Dawn, let me copy and paste something “Mr. Anonymous” also wrote to me.

”… Let me tell you something about myself. When I was
little about the age of 9 I had cases where I would
look at boys my age and think something different,
it's like I wanted to be closer then just be close as
a friend. When I grew up, that sin followed me.
Finally I came to this church called "Victory
Christian Center" it's located on "Cutten rd" in
Houston. And I felt something so different in this
church, I felt my creator touch me for the first
time. It was awesome. I asked GOD to remove this
baggage of sin of my shoulders because I did not want
to be out of the Laws of marriage. I'm telling you
that I have it controlled...Because I ask GOD to give
me wisdom and power to overcome this trial in my life.
I still have little moments here and there, but I do
ask GOD to heal me, because I am a sinner.”

So, he basically admits that he had feelings of being gay, but went to a church so they could brainwash him. (In my theory) With that, I just think it’s hypocritical of him to make any sort of judgments for my lifestyle.

I should have added that in the original post, but didn’t for some reason.

Pretty interesting, huh? It's usually the ones who have had a homosexual experience, OR have had thoughts of being homosexual that bash the bible against your head.

GW Mush said...

I think you are great, and have good qualities and character, but Im wondering about the ethics of posting Mr Anonymous's personal email's to you on a public blog.
Im assuming he sent email to you to talk to you one on one, cofidential and personal level, and to take that and make it public is a breach of confidentiality.
Just a thought.

~Deb said...

It would be much different if I posted this with his actual name... but I didn't do that. I have the right to post any 'factual' things without it being libelous.

GW Mush said...

I know you arent being libelous, its just a matter of personal ethics I guess.
I think this can all be rexolved if you kissed me:)

Miss 1999 said...


Like Dani, I think this is one that's better off just left alone. You can't convince him, or change his mind about how he feels. He's fundamentalist to the core, and there's no educating and/or enlightening them. It's their way or the highway. You know in your heart that you love and serve God as best you can each day- that's all we can do.

Like I've said before, these people are gonna be so shocked when they do get to Heaven to see gay and straight people, and Heaven forbid, Catholics (even though you are no longer Catholic, they take a lot of slack these days) there, too. You're a good person, and a good Christian. Keep it up! *Hugs*

~Deb said...

GW Mush, tell me you're NOT him!!?? Personal ethics is not emailing someone constantly stating that "I'm sick and disgusting" because I love a person who happens to be the same gender as me. *muah* There's that kiss you asked for! ;)

Miss 1999: I totally agree with you, once they get up in heaven and find out we're all there. Pretty funny! {{hugs}}

say it hot said...

Plus, she's not his therapist so it isn't as if there IS a confidfentiality agreement.

~Deb said...

Nothing dotted line!

GW Mush said...

I assure you that Im not Mr Anonymous, sheesh! lol

~Deb said...


*pinches you*

Could you imagine the drama you stirred up here buddy?

Geek said...

I wonder if Bossy Britches has it right... Beside whats wrong with being a lesbian, I am. Hehe, love ya babe.

This is one reason I stopped going to the church my gran went to. They condemned more than loved. Now, I'm not all about hippie (unless she's cute, and Tense is!)love. I beleive in the rules. which by the way can't be missinterpreted. I don't care how you twist them. Thow shall not murder is pretty strait forward, as are all the rest. I'm Sorry, I got long winded, the gall some people have is trully amazing.

QUASAR9 said...

maddie the only problem with your argument "god made us who we are" is that in that case:

god made Hitler a jew hater
god made Saddam a kurd hater
god made israel a Palestine hater
god made Right Wingers gay haters
god made Bush an Oil luvver.

We have the 'free will'
to choose who we are, and what we want to be. Of course no one in their right mind chooses to be blind, or have cancer or any other debilitating disease or disability.

gw mush - my sexual preferences do not mean I walk around with a permanent erection in a world half full of beautiful women, but I am open to gentle persuasion by the 'right' person.

~Deb said...

Geek: It's the people in the church that disappoint me, but when I do go, I seek out only God, and try not to focus on others...

Quasar: Then what makes a child at an early age know that they're attracted to the same sex, or want to be the opposite gender? (With no influence of gay or lesbian people around them.) Can a child determine that they are homosexual at an early age? And I'm very happy to know you're not pitching a tent in here. :)

Leesa said...

Mr. Anon said: "And do yourself a favor and get out of a Catholic church. Because you don't learn anything exception to tradition."

You responded that you are not in the Catholic Church, but further you say, "The narrow-mindedness of a lot of Christians has me wondering how they treat others in real life."

It seems to me when one bashes the Catholic Church because they are an easy target. "Catholics don't think," as Mr. Anon implies. They just hang onto their prayer beads and do things that according to tradition.

For me, if spirituality is important, what difference does it make if we attend a Jewish service, a Catholic Mass or a Methodist service?

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Deb, children have short attention spans, mind you so do some adults.
Also what age are you talking, children in general are asexual, and when they become sexually conscious are either uncomfortable, and follow whatever the local (parents) custom, upbringing and their elder peers and/or sibblings. And some rebel against conventions just to be different too. sexual convention is hjust one of the many customs teenagers rebel against

If you are saying that from an early age you preferred other girls, and had no inclination to explore your sexuality with men. Who am I to argue, you know your life & thoughts better than anyone.

If you are sating that you tried men, and even almost married one, but you just weren't convinced he or 'it' (being a wife or mother) was right for you. Again who am I to say otherwise. You know yourself better than anyone.

PS - Synchronicity, I just noticed you were round my place. I'll respond to your comment there later

Here's looking at ya, loving ya and smiling at ya.

BD said...

Love is love...

What more to say.