Monday, September 22, 2008

Are You a Sex Addict?

There are many addictions to choose from, or if you’re lucky, not to choose from. Some are genetic, some are chosen, and others seem to be presented to you in the least expected moments. They can range anywhere from the internet junkie right into hardcore heroin addicts. Studies show that smoking cigarettes are just as addicting as heroin is. A few years back I heard of sexual addictions. I mean, if you’re married—then what defines sexual addiction?

In the good ol’ Wiki-wiki, it says:
“Those who use this term have described sex addicts as people who, possibly out of fear of any truly intimate relationship, repeatedly and compulsively try to connect with others through highly impersonal intimate behaviors: masturbation, empty affairs, frequent visits to prostitutes, voyeurism, and the like. Sex addicts—numbering in the millions, both men and women, young and old, of all races and religions—become mesmerized with the thrill and rush of adrenaline that they can achieve only through their obsessive, highly ritualized patterns of sexual behavior.[3] Sexual addiction, also called sexual compulsion is a form of psychological addiction. Obsession: This is when people cannot help themselves from thinking a particular thought. Sex addicts spend whole days consumed by sexual thoughts. They develop elaborate fantasies, find new ways of obtaining sex and mentally revisit past experiences. Because their minds are so preoccupied by these thoughts, other areas of their lives that they could be thinking about are neglected.”

Years ago while attending a Trinity of Assembly church, they shoved me into the gay ministry. I thought it was just special ‘prayer time’ for those who were homosexuals. I was mistakenly wrong. It was more of an “ex-gay ministry”. They wanted to get the “devil” out of me. They also advised my partner and I to start taking antidepressants so that we would have less of a sex drive. They said we were "sex addicts". See, it was okay to live together, but we must remain celibate. And, at that time I was really confused because I was trying to figure out my faith vs. my orientation. They constantly said it was a sin. Are gay couples only seen as "sex addicts"? What about gay couples who are married with kids? Are they "sex addicts" just because they are in love with someone who happens to be of the same gender?

“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

Yeh.

Instead of getting caught up in their twisted sermon and the scriptures that were thrown to me to prove that it was a sin, I decided to study them, instead of throwing the bible aside. One lady gave me a few scriptures and said there was no way you could interpret it differently.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Since my partner and I are Christian, we no longer go by the Old Law as the Jewish people go by.

Look at Galatians chapter two verses 17 through 21:

"But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God’s approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not one for those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

That one sentence says it all: {“For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.”}

Then you have this passage:
“You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles. And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ-and not because we have obeyed the law. ***For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law.***” ~Galatians 2:15-16

Relying on Jesus’ sacrifice is why love between two people is not wrong. The Old Law no longer binds us.

Then, the ex-gay woman chucked this scripture at me:

“Don’t you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t you fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers---none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.” Corinthians 6:9-11

They cherry picked that one and left the second part of that scripture out. It finishes off like this:

“There was a time when some of you were just like that, (before Christ), but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.”

Because of Jesus’ sacrifice, the whole “being gay is a sin” is no longer. The Old Law does not apply to Christians. To some other people of different religions, it still may apply.

So going back to the whole “sex addiction” theory on homosexuals: these ex gay ministry people tried telling my partner and I that intimacy between the two of us was an addiction and not out of love.

Fifteen years later, I can prove them wrong. I just hope other people aren’t brainwashed by holy rolling bible thumping zealots.

Do you feel that homosexuals are simply sex addicts?

53 comments:

SJ said...

There are many heterosexual sex addicts. As well as celibate gay folks. So this won't stand up to secular scrutiny.

As for what Christian theology says on the subject I will leave that to the experts like you.

~Deb said...

SJ: There are heterosexual and homosexual sex addicts, but what I’m asking here is if two gay people are in a loving relationship, like a marriage or union, then are they considered “sex addicts”? That’s what baffles me: when religious people feel that all homosexuals are promiscuous. I’m no theologian, however, when I read the bible, it clearly states that Leviticus was the Old Law, or we could never eat shellfish, for that would be an abomination too. As far as Romans------purely out of a promiscuous nature and not meant for loving couples. And you’re right---there are many sex addicts there whether gay or straight… It just gets to me when people assume all gays and lesbians are sex addicts or promiscuous.
Thanks, SJ!

Fiesty Charlie said...

The answer is of course "No, no more or less than any other population in the universe."

There are many people in the world, addicted to pornography, which could fall under the scope of a "sexual addiction."

When you look at the scope of "sexual information," out in the world, it is not particularly geared towards the GLBTQ community.

There have been many "Christian leaders," who have fallen due to infidelity, pornography addiction, and homosexual relationships.

Because they identify as "straight," I think the church is more loving, kind and forgiving.

When those same church members deal with the same issues in the relation to the GLBTQ members of the same church, the answer is different.

Christ like for the straight... not so much for the GLBTQ people in their midst.

Excellent post, and great points made.

I doubt it will ever change.

Jess said...

I can certainly see why some would thing gay men would be...but shit, men are just horny all the time! Doesn't matter if they are gay or not.

I would be lying if I said I didn't think about how I could "tear that girl UP" when I see a hottie out, but I don't think that makes me a sex addict...and I can guarantee that Krystal would say otherwise...poor girl probably WISHES I was a sex addict.

Tim said...

What an interesting post to start the week. My opinion is no. These "Christians" who think that gays are sex addicts are the same people who think sex is dirty and that you only have sex for one reason. We surely don't have sex for fun do we??? I get a kick out of the fact that some Christians pick and choose from the Old Testament if it suites their cause. As John Stewart of the Daily Show said once... If you want to know what the Old Testament means, ask a Jew... It's our book!
It was very funny but true.
I do believe that my sister is addicted to her partner just a I am addicted to my wife.

~Deb said...

Fiesty: ”…Because they identify as "straight," I think the church is more loving, kind and forgiving.”

Isn’t that the truth? Imagine, the woman who got divorced and remarried is still acceptable in the church’s eyes, even though that’s ‘current law’ in the bible.

Mind you-------NOT that I am judging that, however it still doesn’t make sense why these religious zealots will tell us that we’re sex addicts only because we’re gay.

Thanks for your comment!

Jess: We’re human. We all have impure thoughts from time to time.
“Tear that girl up”??? You’re hysterical!

Tim: REPODUCTION ONLY! Is everyone going to hell then? I never heard that saying on the Daily Show- but it makes sense, right? I mean, if someone believes it’s wrong to do one thing, then fine, but it doesn’t mean it’s right for another of another faith or belief system. The bible is interpreted so differently to so many people. It has to make you wonder why, right?

”…I do believe that my sister is addicted to her partner just a I am addicted to my wife.”

You’re so adorable!!! You & your wife are a beautiful couple by the way. (And I mean that without a trace of sexual addiction in my inflection.) ;)

Sometimes Saintly Nick said...

No, I do not believe that homosexuals are “sex addicts.”

I do believe that the “desert religions—Judaism, Islam, and indirectly Christianity—have been used, for perhaps different reasons, to condemn sexuality. The theological history of each provides some of the rationale for how this came to be, but to present that would require several thousand words.

Selecting scripture is make one’s own point while deleting or ignoring scriptures that that go against one’s point is called “text proofing” or “proof texting” or “isogesis”—reading into scriptures one’s own view as opposed to seeking to understand what the scripture is really saying. Isogesis inevitably leads to heresy!

Deb, if you ever again encounter folks—generally they’re right wing fundamentalists—who attempt to justify their position via text proofing or proof texting or isogesis, you may want to remind them of these words of Saint Paul:

“We have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.” ~ 2 Corinthians 4:2 (NIV)

Tim said...

Not even a little trace of sexual addition??? darn....

Grant said...

I didn't know masturbation counted as sex. Looks like I'm an addict.

I think the view that you homos are all sex addicts stems from the belief that homosexuality is in itself a perversion, so it's not much of a leap to assume other perversions as well. I remember when it was announced that Dumbledore was gay, I heard a lot of comments to the effect of "So THAT'S why he had to stay away from Harry, har har har." Because if he's gay, he must also be a sex-addicted pedophile rapist. Just like how you are an exhibitionist who can't resist posting pictures of her boobs on her blog.

G'wan - you know you wanna. It would be a sin not to.

~Deb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
~Deb said...

Nick: ”… Selecting scripture is make one’s own point while deleting or ignoring scriptures that that go against one’s point is called “text proofing” or “proof texting” or “isogesis”—reading into scriptures one’s own view as opposed to seeking to understand what the scripture is really saying. Isogesis inevitably leads to heresy!”

Just like the scripture that I pointed up above from Corinthians,

“Don’t you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t you fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers---none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.” Corinthians 6:9-11

Then my question remains: why don’t they give the other portion of it? You answered it by the text proofing theory, however these people say that we do exactly the same thing. So it’s a never-ending battle of ‘who’s right and who’s wrong’ type of scenario. It’ll never be resolved because people of great faith on different levels will never quite see eye-to-eye.

Now, if I use the scripture you gave me in 2 Corinthians 4:2 (NIV), these same people are going to tell me that this is exactly what I’m doing.

Never….ending…………………ugh.
Thanks, Nick!

Tim: Maybe a trace—am I going to hell? ;)

Grant: Yeah, some call it ‘the sex to nowhere’—almost like walking on a treadmill. The sense that homosexuality appears to be a perversion may be because the “state law” {man} does not allow us to marry, therefore we’re having premarital sex. But, let me ask you this---what about heterosexual premarital sex? (Or should I even go there with you?) heh… I’m sure you remember one time “someone” that you introduced me to had compared my lifestyle (being a lesbian in a relationship) as bad as being a rapist, pedophile and murderer. Do you remember that? And where ever did you find those photos of me? (haha) If you’re talking about cleavage—those are a dime a dozen if you get a good sale at Victoria’s Secret. Don’t tell!

Grax said...

Homos are no more sex crazed than any heteros. Or even bisexuals for that matter. It's the individual that has the addiction, not the category.

I find the whole religions against gays topic somewhat infuriating. It a perfectly natural thing to be attracted to someone of the same sex. This is something that occurs naturally in the animal kingdom. Of course this nature idea probably doesn't work if you don't believe that humans evolved from animals.

Another thing that's gotten me annoyed is how that ministry you mention advised you to take antidepressant. How dare they! What makes them think that they have the know-how to suggest drugs like that for a problem that's not even a problem? Not to mention filtering the bible of all the bits in it stating that "gays are bad!" that makes people feel bad about themselves and stops them thinking and questioning the norm.

Then again, it took a bible passage to say that it's ok to be gay, as well as being sinful in other manners. We all make mistakes, that kinda stuff. Here's an interesting question; if there was no bible to tell us what was right or wrong (or any other kind of measurement/comparison for that matter) would we instinctively decide that homosexuality right or wrong? My first guess would be depending on how one feels during the act of homo-sex is how one would decide if it is 'right or wrong'.

And so what if you are sex crazed? So long as its not hurting anyone then that's ok by me and most of society. And I'll be somewhat more jealous because you'd be getting more action than I am right now. But that's a different matter altogether.

Slightly off topic how can you be an "ex" gay? Surely that means that you are, in fact, a bi-sexual (or maybe just bi-curious)? I'm under the impression that you're either gay, straight, or bi. Isn't it a life choice made by your inner self, not a passing fad?

Sometimes Saintly Nick said...

Deb, my answer to "if I use the scripture you gave me in 2 Corinthians 4:2 (NIV), these same people are going to tell me that this is exactly what I’m doing" is simple: one can never win an argument with a fundamentalist. Therefore, why try? Simply speak your piece/peace and walk away.And shake the dust from your sandals as you do. That's exactly what Jesus said to do!

~Deb said...

Grax: You’re absolutely right. Heteros and homos are both to blame for ‘increased hormonal activities’---but it’s so grossly insane that religious people find themselves whiter than snow without a flaw.

Yes, they told me to take Zoloft and named a few others (in case of side effects) in order to lower my libido. (As if my libido changes my orientation.) It is absolutely wrong for them to suggest this and I find it an outrage that they’re suggesting chemicals, that to me, are dangerous. I know people are on it for specific reasons, but I just don’t believe in it. I think CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) is the best thing for depression as well as anxiety. That’s a whole other story though.

I know, the “ex-gay” thing is as bad as telling me that I’m an “ex-Italian”. I’m going Irish! (*Grabs my beer*)

Thanks for your input, Grax!

Nick: The reason why “I try” is because there are so many friends, family and people who read me that are so unsure about themselves because of these people I speak of. So, hopefully, someone will read my words and see that there is another light to this- if they so happen to interpret everything the way I do. It’s all up to them and their faith. That’s all I can hope for!

I do it for the people who were confused like me in the past.

~Deb said...

The "beer joke" is not to irritate the Irish, but to only relate to a portion of them. God bless them! :)

Grax said...

Hehe, you dodged a bullet there Debs. ;-)

~Deb said...

What bullet? I'm confused?

*crosses eyes*

~Deb said...

OH the 'almost putting a foot in my mouth' comment I just wrote?

Haha!

I can only relate my friend...only relate! All in good fun.

I love my beer!

So sinful---YET---didn't Jesus make water out of wine?

Tim said...

Deb,
If you are headed to hell for that, then we'll be on the same train ;-)

You can go Irish anytime you want..lol

BBC said...

Well, I sure think about it a lot, but that's mostly because I haven't been getting any for the last eight years.

Back when I had mates it wasn't that big of a deal, depending on the mate of course. It takes one that turns my crank and wants me once a day, it's a good way to put a man in a good frame of mine and ready to tackle the world.

But that last one wanted me twice a day, I loved it of course, but at my age it started to make my nuts hurt, ha, ha, ha.

I'm good for ten times a day, but give me a break, I can only uncork it once a day.

But boobs, yeah, I'll kiss them twenty times a day. More whiskey !! And fresh horses and women for my men !!

BBC said...

What?

BBC said...

The good thing is: there are more men like you who are increasing the number of the lesbian population!

Yay for you! :)


You don't know me well enough to say that. If you are a natural gay you knew it at a very young age, in your teens.

If you decided that you were gay later because you couldn't maintain a decent relationship with men and turned to being gay it's only because, oh hell, never mind, I'm tired of trying to explain this over and over again.

Go gay, I don't give a crap. Get married, again, I don't give a crap. It will introduce you to the joy of divorce from the same sex, ha, ha, ha.

Put that in your next book or whatever it is you write. :-)

Catch said...

I do not feel that they are sex addicts. I feel they are trying to live their lives as normally as possible and enjoy having a family and a relationship.

~Deb said...

Tim: {{hugs}} Thank you!

BBC: Let's not leave out your portion of why I said that wise guy!

BBC says: "...There’s at least one good thing about gay women, they’re not giving men any crap, they’re giving other women crap, ha, ha, ha. Women multiply everything so if she gives her mate a little crap she is going to get a ton of shit back from her, ha, ha, ha. I love it."

Hey, whether or not that's true (hehe), I had to bust ya balls on that one. I know...I'm so leaving myself open for another weird comment.

Catch: *sigh of relief*
THANK YOU! :)

BBC said...

Good morning, 37 degrees this morning, bout time to dig out the ball warmers.

As for your comment on my blog this morning....

Um, Deb, I don't have running water, but by choice, not because I can't afford it. I just have better things to do with my money and get by just fine without it.

Of course if a woman ever shows up here I'll put in water, but until then I may not bother.

Meaning I'll never have to bother, ha, ha, ha.

~Deb said...

Well my friend who I told you about that had no running water in his cabin upstate used to have to take showers at the local high school. They have this huge Olympic size pool and a bunch of showers. Not sure how he was allowed, but it was his place to clean up. What do you do for showers or are you playing with me again? And you pay for internet & computer yet you won't pay for running water? If you want a woman to show up there, better get some of that good ol' H20.

BBC said...

How do you clean yourself?

I've explained many times, pay attention damn it. I take bowl baths everyday, just like in the old days, and I'm as clean as the rest of you, I just don't piss a lot of water away doing it.

Sure I like a shower, and get one at times, and will be putting one in here one day, but it still won't use as much water as most people waste on one.

I can get all the water I need from Helen next door. All it takes is that garden hose and these water tanks.

Now get your butt back to work to pay that water bill. If your water goes out for some reason, I'll still have water, the last laugh will be on you, ha, ha, ha.

~Deb said...

Well, it’s a good excuse for getting a sponge bath by your date. I wish I could use that as an excuse! I am totally impressed that you’re doing it to conserve water. I’m sure you smell better than most people around here.

And, water’s free in these parts here. I probably waste about a lake full of water each morning. I’m so not ‘green’…

But I respect people who are! ;)

BBC said...

If I was paying for running water and all the other things people like to spoil themselves with I couldn't help these ladies as much.

MY FAVORITE FOUNDATION

~Deb said...

Despite your tough exterior---you have a good heart, Billy. :)

The Mad Hoosier said...

I think that everyone does and/or should be "text proofing", whatever that means. The problem comes in when we try to take the Lord's responsibility of Judgement for ourselves. But I'm completely for and understanding of anyone who reads the Bible and interprets it however they want to increase their closeness with the Lord.

Of course, I don't believe in the concept of sin, and I believe that we are all going to be with the Lord after this earthly life, regardless of our actions here on Earth. We are here to learn something to become more enlightened souls to please the Lord.

It's a shame that people use the bible to belittle others or use sexual orientation to condemn others; particularly since our souls are androgynous.

~Deb said...

The Mad Hoosier: Thank you for your comment. It is very sad when people belittle others with God's words, or 'the words in the bible', because some don't believe it's actually God's words. All have different views---and that's okay. But there are so many gays and lesbians who are feeling so guilty over how "religious people" interpret the bible and then bash them over the head with it. I do believe with my Christian faith that Jesus has died for all of our sinful natures, therefore having the comfort and the faith of being in heaven when we pass on... With that in mind, I also believe that God sees our hearts: we must abide the golden rule and not hurt others and have a "good heart" with good intentions. Our sinful nature, being that we're in our physical/carnal state will always be a given, which is why, in my belief, that Jesus sacrificed Himself for us.

The old law was abolished when Jesus died on the cross.

I respect anyone's belief of course, as long as they don't bash others in the process.

The Mad Hoosier said...

Yeah...I'm so sorry that the entrenched religious views have caused or enhanced guilty feelings over who they are for gays and lesbians.

I'm still trying to "figure out" my religious beliefs, but I don't subscribe that Christ's death is what allowed us into Heaven. I've had several posts about it on my blog, but it boils down to...God created us to be like him. It isn't in us to bring a child into this world and immediately determine that it's unworthy unless they worship us. So why would He put us into this world and immediately determine us unworthy unless we worship Him.

Just like any earthly parent, He wants us to love Him, to adore Him, to follow Him, to listen to His guidance, and He'd love for us to live a life to make Him proud.

If we don't, He may be disappointed in us, but His unconditional love will always be there.

That's kinda getting off message from your post...sorry about that.

But it's my hope that everyone figures out or believes that there are no conditions on God's love...even the condition of Christ's death(in my view). We will all see Him someday. We should all hope and want to live a life that when we do see Him again, he'll say how proud He is of our job on earth...but they should never doubt His love...for just like our love for our children, His love is Unconditional.

If everyone can believe that, there will be a lot less judging of other people, and a lot less guilty feelings by people being who they are.

We can only hope...and pray...it happens someday.

The Mad Hoosier said...

That was the quick version...the use of "Worship" may not have been the best way to describe it, since many people believe they should worship God.

Of course, I could be WAY wrong...I'm still an infant in determining my religious beliefs. But not only does it feel right to me, but it seems to make sense to me that we all will be with God someday.

3carnations said...

That's ridiculous.

The Methodist church I go to has made a point of being very welcoming to homosexuals. When this first came about, I didn't know how I felt about it.

I'm pleased to say that my church has really opened my eyes in that regard. In being welcoming, and in seeing these couples and families, I am able to step far enough away from myself to say that even if I may believe that the Bible is saying that homosexuality is a sin, I am also a sinner, and I haven't seen any ranking of sins from best to worst, therefore none of us is better than another, nor are any of us worse. :)

rubenh (thesocialreformer.com) said...

hard addiction to break...(no, not from personal experience lol..)

BBC said...

The bible, rolls eyes. Have you read the Koran? You just believe in the bible because you was raised in a culture that taught you to.

As for respecting others religions, I respect none of them. The proper religion for this planet has not been created yet.

And all they do is fight and kill each other. The idiots.

BBC said...

Jack and Jill went up the hill, they each had a buck and a quarter.

When they came down Jill had two fifty, you can bet they didn't go after water. :-)

BBC said...

Is your village missing an idiot? We'll send her back for the cost of the bus fare.

BBC said...

God has a sex addiction, get the hell over it.

God help me.

God help you? Of course, go to my room.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
~Deb said...

The Mad Hoosier: I totally understand everyone has their own belief systems, and that’s okay. It’s interesting to hear what other people believe.

”So why would He put us into this world and immediately determine us unworthy unless we worship Him?”

In my faith, and in the bible, it does say that the biggest commandment of all is to love God with all your heart. It also states that if we worship or place any idols {or Gods} before Him, that we will not go to heaven because we have not worshipped the one who has created us, sent His only Son on the cross to die for us and His Holy Spirit to guide us. So, “in my belief”, it is VERY important to worship God and place no idols before God.

”Just like any earthly parent, He wants us to love Him, to adore Him, to follow Him, to listen to His guidance, and He'd love for us to live a life to make Him proud.”

Again, this is only what I believe in… You said “earthly parents”. Earthly people {humans} are full of flaws and imperfections. They are not God. The one who has to judge us in the afterlife is God. Our parents may even accept us killing another person, but does that make it right? Our parents may ask us to steal for them, which I have seen many times working in retails. Does it make it right? So, if our “earthly parents” are more valuable than God, then who are you really worshipping? I’m just asking as an open-minded Christian who sets here her beliefs and values upon God only.

I agree with you: His love is unconditional. I know that you’re doing a lot of comparison to human love vs. God love by saying, “If our own parents love us” type of example, but keep in mind that God loves you more than any other human is capable of. His love isn’t to be compared by human standards. I do understand it, but for me, God’s love is something we can never comprehend- it’s SO big and so vast and we could never, ever imagine how forgiving and how loving His ways are Our human mind and heart cannot fathom it. No human can forgive or love to the extent that God can.

”That was the quick version...the use of "Worship" may not have been the best way to describe it, since many people believe they should worship God.”

I’m not sure I understand that last comment, however if we fail to worship God, then who are we giving thanks to of our lives here on earth? I don’t know about anyone else, but for me, my life revolves around “worshipping” God and placing Him first above everything else in my life. Even to place “idols” before him—whether it’s focusing too much on your partner or spouse and forgetting about God all together. That happens. Placing addictions before God is another “idol”. (Which can be absolutely anything.) So, in my beliefs, my goal here is to live for God, worship Him and know that I’m not perfect and to allow Him to guide me.

3Carnations: I agree and disagree. I agree that it’s a wonderful thing that you have found a church that welcomes you and that you know that we are all sinners. I disagree with the part where you said that it says it’s wrong in the bible. The only part it tells you that it’s an abomination is in Leviticus, which is the old law. New Christians do not go by that any longer. All other references, or most, refer to the act of promiscuity and not a loving relationship between two people. To me, and my interpretations of the bible: it never says that homosexuality is a sin. So take heart and know you’re okay. We’re all sinners regardless, but loving someone of the same gender is a beautiful thing which God would never condemn you for. If you’re getting into the premarital sex bit---heterosexual premarital sex is just the same thing. I’m only speaking about “love” here.

Rubenh: I can imagine!



Whoever is typing in under "anonymous", I don't mind if you debate a topic, but to insult another commenter is uncalled for and will be deleted.

Thanks!

The Mad Hoosier said...

I'm not saying that, as human beings, we are move valuable than God. Not at all! What I'm saying is that He created us to be like Him. Just because we have flaws, it doesn't mean that God didn't create us on earth to resemble or maybe even mirror the afterlife.

Human mothers and fathers forgive their children for killing or stealing or a thousand other things that are immoral...because their love for their children is unconditional...Just like God created their love to be, because His love for us in unconditional. In that way, we see one of many ways how God created us to be like Him. He created unconditional love for children on Earth to resemble the unconditional love He has for us in the afterlife.

If His love is so great, why would he condemn any us to eternal damnation...even if we do the most horrible things here on earth? I submit that He wouldn't. Just as a parent on earth wouldn't disown their children for doing something bad, I don't believe He will disown our souls because we do something bad on earth. Again, a comparison of how He created us to be on earth, to how He feels for us in the afterlife.

That's just what I believe. I certainly don't begrudge anyone who believes differently. As I said, I support anything a person believes that brings their own personal relationship with God closer together. Of course, when that belief impedes someone else from having a close relationship with God, then I oppose. Such as people who try to twist the bible to get others to conform, for instance.

If we believe that we should strictly follow what the Bible says, or what a certain religion teaches, then we therefore believe that half of the United States isn't going to make it to Heaven, much less the rest of the world. I refuse to believe that God wouldn't allow all these souls on Earth back into Heaven because they don't believe exactly as my church does. That's not what a God of endless Love would do.

I'm just comfortable in knowing that God adores me...and that I adore Him...that I will be with Him someday, regardless of what I do here on earth. That comfort doesn't give me a free pass to do whatever I want down here on earth. Because I adore Him, I want to be the best person I possibly can to make Him proud of me. Which similiarly, is all we want to do for our human parents, make them proud of us.

~Deb said...
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~Deb said...

The Mad Hoosier: I totally understand what you’re saying, but I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to pinpoint:

”… Human mothers and fathers forgive their children for killing or stealing or a thousand other things that are immoral...because their love for their children is unconditional...”

Let me ask you this… First of all, it’s a wonderful thing to forgive another person. With that being said, what if the parents allow their children to kill and feel it’s okay?

I even think forgiving someone who has (God forbid) killed one of your relatives is a beautiful concept. Is it easy? No. That’s what most of the Amish people do. It’s an amazing act of love.

I do believe that there is heaven and hell. I also believe that God sees your heart. If you intentionally try hurting people for the rest of your life with evil intentions, then yes, I do think there is another place awaiting those, which opposes heaven.

”… If His love is so great, why would he condemn any us to eternal damnation...even if we do the most horrible things here on earth?”

Do you believe that Satan is real? Do you believe in hell at all? Or do you believe that hell is here on earth? Some people feel that life is one big experience. I think it’s an interesting concept. Have you read the book, “Conversations With God”? Your beliefs remind me of the words of Neale Donald Walsch. I’ve bought several books of his, besides the Conversations With God series. All of them are soooooooooo interesting and so intricately explained to where “it just makes sense”. But, while reading it, I must say that my spirit was going against the grain. I guess that’s where our “personal faith” comes in. But what a beautiful belief and idea that life is just a huge experimental process and that we all go back to the bigger mold up in the sky! We’re all “one”—which I do believe to some extent, but I also believe in the good and the bad. We wouldn’t exist without the good and the bad, the yin and yang so to speak.

Do you believe Hitler went to heaven? (I ask this with an opened-mind and NOT sarcastically.) I know sometimes text can be misconstrued, so please take my text in the most questioning and open-minded way.

Do you believe that people who worship Satan will go to heaven? (That is, if you believe there is a hell.)

Like you, I also don’t believe much of what the church believes… I rely on my personal relationship with God only. I do believe that a lot of people use the scriptures in the bible to belittle and hurt others. That in itself is disgusting in my personal opinion.

” I'm just comfortable in knowing that God adores me...and that I adore Him...”

Beautiful! God loves you more than anyone on this earth can possibly love you. He loves you as a sinner, as a human, as someone who has faith in Him. Knowing that you adore Him leaves me to believe that you have the conscience of God, which means you don’t intentionally hurt others. Your human condition is “sin”---the human flaw that we all have, because we live in the physical nature which is sinful in itself.

”… That comfort doesn't give me a free pass to do whatever I want down here on earth. Because I adore Him, I want to be the best person I possibly can to make Him proud of me. Which similiarly, is all we want to do for our human parents, make them proud of us.”

Again: the “conscience of God”. That last sentence you wrote answered my question!

Thank you for explaining your beliefs. They are a lot like mine after what I’ve read.


+++

The Mad Hoosier said...

Hey Deb, thanks for letting me express my views here. Our conversation does help me explore my religious belief a lot.

I think, though, after I answer a few of the questions you posed lastly, you may not feel that are beliefs are simliar...which is ok. I'm definitely not asking you to change your beliefs...particularly since I know I don't have the answer to the full scope of my beliefs. I just know my convictions of my foundation.

I'll say, to start off with, that much of what has lead me to question what I believe and why has to do with Sylvia Browne. She's a psychic, which immediately turns many people off, so I'll understand if you immediately dismiss much of what I've said after this. Sylvia Browne is an amazing psychic who unabashedly atributes all of her abilities, and her purpose here on earth, to God.

So we'll start with Satan. She says that Satan is not the devil, but God's strongest angel, sent to watch over the "dark souls".

I know that the Bible doesn't say that, of course, but I also believe, as Sylvia does, that over the centuries it's definitely within the realm of possiblity that the Bible was altered/adjusted/mistranslated/misconstrued to fit what certain rulers of the time wanted it to mean.

I know that goes against much of what Churches teach...that it is God's words, that it hasn't been touched through the years, that it's infallable. I definitely understand that line of thought...I do. And I'm not saying that I dismiss the Bible altogether...I'm just not sure that everything in it throughout the thousands of years hasn't been changed.

And I know that goes against what many people believe...that you can't Pick and Choose what you want from the Bible. I understand that too. I'm no Biblical scholar at all...so I can't say that my choice to trust certain things from the Bible more than others has any merit at all.

So...do I believe in Satan. Because I don't believe in the concept of sin, I don't believe in the the traditional concept of Satan. Do I think he's God's Strongest Angel sent to protect the "dark souls"? I probably do lean that way. I do lean more towards believing that Earth is the closest thing to Hell that there is....perhaps now more than ever before. Sylvia Browne has said, and I tend to believe, that only the strongest and most mature souls come to Earth.

So for Hitler...I'm not sure he went to Heaven...but I don't think he went to a Hell, so to speak. He could have went to Heaven, or he could be one of those "dark souls" that Sylvia speaks about.

This ties into the good versus bad thing you mentioned. There has to be evil people on this planet for us to learn anything. I don't think God puts evil on Earth to punish us...but to teach us.

I don't think for a moment that God hated those persecuted by Hitler...but I think his actions were done for a reason...for us to learn from. And everyone of those people that suffered at his hands, were learning something...something they could take to God in Heaven and say, "This is what I learned while down on Earth".

I'm sure I'm missing some things there, or it could be some things that I haven't thought of. Feel free to continue the discussion if you like. Or, you can say to yourself, "this guy's WAY too out there..." and just drop it. I can respect that. Just know that I'm not in any way trying to say what you believe is wrong, or trying to change your mind. At best, I'm just helping you to question things some to feel more convicted in your beliefs. After all, God does say that we should question our faith from time to time and not follow blindly those that teach it, right?

Adam T. Wamack said...

I really enjoyed this post. I have struggled over the exact same topic for many years. I am not gay, but this post clearly touches on "sin" in general. I have always held religions somewhat in contempt (even though I am an active member of a Christian church) because of their uncanny ability to separate people. It seems that beliefs unite and religions separate: just look at the Crusades. But I have realized exactly what you said:

"That one sentence says it all: {“For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.”}"

I enjoy your blog and will surely visit often.

Adam T. Wamack

The Mad Hoosier said...

Great point Adam. That's the part I'm stuck at, currently. I'm not certain that I believe Christ died on the cross....and I don't believe he died for our sins....because my conviction of not believing in the concept of sin runs deeper the notion that he died to bear our sins.

But I certainly believe in Christ, and believe he was sent here for a reason...I just haven't figured out what that reason is, since as I said I don't believe it was to die for our sins.

Again...I could be woefully wrong and be going to Hell because I don't acknowledge my "sins".

Great topic and post all around.

~Deb said...

The Mad Hoosier: No problem. I love hearing other people’s views. And you are absolutely right: after reading your comment, we definitely differ in beliefs----which is OKAY! That’s what makes the world go round, right?

As far as Sylvia Browne, she has failed to prove as an “amazing psychic” to me, only because when I see her on TV, someone asks her, “What do you see in my future for love?” She’ll scratch her head and tell her, “Oh honey, please check your liver.” She’ll totally avoid the topic that’s being asked or, the other person will give her a scrunched up look as though she is way off.

Psychics/profits or anyone who is willing to speak to the dead is against my beliefs. I feel it’s dangerous territory because the devil can hack into whatever you may deem is “true”.

”…So we'll start with Satan. She says that Satan is not the devil, but God's strongest angel, sent to watch over the "dark souls".

Here’s what I believe: Satan will do anything to make anyone believe he is not a bad thing. He will tell people that the pentagon is “good” because it deals with the five elements of the “earth”---which is not of the Kingdom of God----yet we are to appreciate and love the earth, but not worship it. (Thus my belief!) I do believe that the pentagram is the sign of the devil. That’s just me. The devil will also convince others that he’s NOT the devil------and that he was an “angel”. This is a common practice in many ‘darker religions’ and such.

”…Do I think he's God's Strongest Angel sent to protect the "dark souls"? I probably do lean that way.”

Protect? Again, in my belief, that is the word to lure you in. He will tell you that he’ll “protect” you, when in fact he will torture you. The devil is not good. Believe me, Satan seeks to kill, steal and destroy, not protect. God protects. He even protects dark souls and saves them, if they are willing. Please be very careful with that idea.

We do live to the closest thing to hell. There’s a prayer that comforts me…

“He that is in me in greater than he that is in the world.”

Meaning: “HE” {God} that is in my {in my heart} is greater than “he” {evil or Satan} that is in the world. There is more bad in this world than good. Revelations will point that out clearly. I even believe that we’re in the end times and we need to be very careful of who and how people will persuade us into believing that the devil is here to protect us, when in fact, he is here to destroy us.

”…So for Hitler...I'm not sure he went to Heaven...but I don't think he went to a Hell, so to speak. He could have went to Heaven, or he could be one of those "dark souls" that Sylvia speaks about.”

Hmm. I really cannot answer that, only because you are stuck on Sylvia Browne as though she was some spiritual leader. I can’t go there because I think she is a fraud and I do believe that psychics and mediums are for entertainment only.

And no, I don’t think you’re “way too out there”---I think you are very bright and your beliefs are very interesting, except the fact that I worry about your fascination – almost borderlining the concept of making Sylvia Browne an idol…or “god”.

If we never question our faith, our ability to be open-minded would be next to none. I’m glad that you have strong beliefs, yet you’re willing to always question it, like me.

Thanks again for your thought provoking comments!

Adam: Thanks so much for stopping by! I do agree that a lot of the churches seem to separate people in accordance to which cross they bear. I was thrown into the ex-gay ministry, because they thought I needed to be fixed. (heh) But, I sit there among the other believers, the other sinners, the other people who are in the same boat as me, whether gay, straight, bi, trans, married or divorced, we’re all brothers and sisters the way I see it.

~Deb said...

P.S. I just want to note that Satan was a fallen angel, yet he is not viewed as a "heavenly angel". I do acknowledge that.

The Mad Hoosier said...

Hehe...my wife says that sometimes about Sylvia Browne too...that I trust her word as though she were God.

I really don't think I do...I just think that she got me thinking the most about what I believe.

She did open the thought to me about not believing in Sin...but I've never heard her explaination about why she things that the concept of sin is "silly" as she put it. I developed my own theory about that, as it were. :)

I would just add...there were prophets "or psychics" in the Bible right? Yet we know they weren't frauds. Did they just cease to exist? Or is it possible that there are some people on this earth, currently called psychics, that would pass as prophet-like?

~Deb said...

The Mad Hoosier: Well, I find her entertaining too, but I don't believe most of her readings or predictions. There were many prophets years ago in the biblical times, but the thing is, you have to be careful not to rely on most of them, only because when people talk to the dead, it's not 100% proof that you're talking to your loved one or that your reading is truth. No doubt, there are real psychics out there, I'm not denying that, but I don't want to take a chance with the devil hacking into my conversation with a deceased loved one or a psychic reading from a darker unknown source. It doesn't sit well with me, but I don't bash those who do it...I just want to warn them to be careful, that's all. :)

kathi said...

I think 3 c's left a wonderful comment and one that more believers would do well to think about. Just sayin'.