Friday, June 29, 2007

Using the Bible to Bash Homosexuals

We’re not broken.

It’s amazing how some people will find flaws in others. It’s crazy when other Christians cast stones while preaching the word of God. There are a bunch of Ted Haggards roaming the earth.

A few “so called loving Christians” have voiced their concerns with my new book. They’re afraid that I’m teaching a false doctrine. I’m not writing a bible here. I’m writing a book based upon the differences between religion and spirituality in my own views. I have that right. People have the right to choose what they believe. I have no authority over that. God gave us “choice”. We have the right to make our own decisions and conclusions of whether or not we’d find solace believing in a particular faith or belief system.

Why do people feel they can fix others? Why do so many “Christians” want to change people and mold them in a form that suits their own kind? I truly believe that these types of people don’t have enough faith in what Jesus has done for us, that they feel the need to be bound by old law and force-feed their “truth” to others. I don’t force-feed my beliefs. I share and I love hearing other people’s views and beliefs. I have absolutely no right to judge.

There’s only one truth- some would say. Why are people using the bible to hurt others? If you read some of this, and then head over to this blog, you’ll see people who have a mission to turn all homosexuals into heterosexuals. These people got some sort of recognition with a Monument Award, which is based upon this:
“In an effort to encourage more Christian bloggers to monitor, analyze and publish (MAP) the gay christian movement, GCM has launched a monthly award called the Monument Awards. The Monument will highlight the posts of blog authors who present a clear biblical defense of truth in the face the false theology of the gay Christian movement.”

If they’re not secretly gay or harbor feelings of homosexuality themselves, then why are they so focused and determined to bash homosexuals or turn the LGBT community away from God?

Christine from “Talk Wisdom”, rectifies her belief that God condemns homosexuality with these verses:

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."

Mat 7:14 "Because[fn1] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?"

Mat 7:17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."

Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Mat 7:20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'"

Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock."

Mat 7:25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock."

Mat 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand."

Mat 7:27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

Do you see anywhere in these scriptures, where it says that Jesus condemns homosexuality? What these “Christians” do is twist the scriptures in order to bash homosexuals. They take passages from the bible and fit it to their preferences. They say that gays and lesbians who are Christian do the same. The difference is, the scriptures that I point out have everything to do with this matter. They refuse to give you a straight answer, or a supply you with a scripture that fits the bill. They’ll cherry pick their favorite condemning scripture and say it was meant for “you”, when in fact, it’s meant for “evil people” who practice wicked things.

I have supplied passages numerous times that prove to me, and prove to other people as well, that homosexuality is not a sin- the act of promiscuity is. There’s a huge difference between lust and love. They can’t distinguish between the two. They’ll say anything outside of a marriage is committing adultery. Well, if the LGBT community were able to get married legally, this would be possible. “People” have set the rules and regulations over this law determined purely out of discrimination and different interpretations of what they feel is fit for America as well as biblically. They also leave out the fact that in the bible, being a divorcee who remarries while their ex is still alive is a sin. That’s “outside” of marriage too. But they don’t think that’s valid. Why?

Because they’re heterosexuals.

Christine also makes this statement about Susan Powter. She said, “Susan was a victim of spousal infidelity and abandonment when her first husband left her for a younger woman. When women get stomped on by the men in their lives and then some of them end up turning towards lesbianism, I always get a nagging question in my mind. Is lesbianism fixed or fluid? Which is it?”

I can answer that for her, through my own personal experiences. Every guy I have dated when I was younger was more than respectful towards me and treated me with love and kindness. I never once had a bad experience with a man. I had a boyfriend before I came out as a lesbian. He was the most beautiful man, inside and out. Today, I still communicate with him from time to time. He’s the most giving, caring, compassionate man I have ever known. He never once disrespected me. He never “stomped on me” and he is not the reason why I’m a lesbian. My genes are. The way God created me is the reason why my orientation is the way it is.

I asked Christine why she focuses so much on lesbians. She really doesn’t ramble on too much about gay men. I asked her if she had repressed feelings about being a lesbian herself, since she is so focused on the topic—more than Christianity itself.

She said, “Oh yeah Deb. Yep. You found me out! Sheesh... I've only been married for 24 years to a wonderful man who loves me (and I love him!) and we have two grown children. Yeah...that would tend to make others think that I'm a repressed lesbian.”

I replied, “I have a friend who was married to a man for 33 years. She came out of the closet due to her sexual orientation that she has known ever since she was a child. Sometimes people come out late. Who knows?”

I have a very special reader on my blog that does not choose to comment. She reads me daily and emails me every so often. She’s stuck in a situation that she can’t get out of, due to having many children in her marriage. She wanted to do the right thing. Now she’s unhappy. (And yes, I have permission from this anonymous woman to post this story as long as I don't use her name.) She is now well into her late 50’s and feels repressed and resentful. Her kids are grown up and she’s afraid of coming out, ruining everything she has known all her life to be comfortable. She feels it’s too late to be herself and find what it’s like to live a life that she wants. But that’s hard. How can she? She can do the best she can with what she has right now. If she decides to leave what she has, that is purely up to her…and not anyone else.

So don’t give me the, “I’ve been married for somewhat years and have children” bit. It happens. I’m not saying you’re a homosexual Christine, I’m just pointing out an observation about you, since you seem to focus way too much on lesbians.

Let gays have the option to be Christian and love God. Why are you trying to convince them to turn away from God or better yet- trying to change their lives and fix them, when only God can? Don’t you trust God enough?

These are questions I have for everyone who feels the need to “fix us”. We’re not broken.

112 comments:

Mark said...

We’re not broken.

That's why you don't need Jesus, nor do you need to repent, nor do you need ...God.

You condem yourself Deb.

~Deb said...

I do need Jesus, Mark. I repent everyday for my sins. Loving my partner isn't one of them though...I have no apologies over that, because it's not wrong.

Loud Mouth said...

Gotta love ole Marky Mark! There’s intelligence for ya! Deb, you really shouldn’t condemn yourself so much! How ignorant is this guy anyway? Come on, he can’t even comment rationally. What a waste of time.

I just quickly sifted through some of the crap on Talk Wisdom. What a bunch of bigots. Not one of her biblical references point out to anything other than generalized evil sins. That sista has some major lesbian tendencies or she’s just a bored housewife.

Catch said...

Why give these people time and space on your blog? We read you b/c we like you! None of us are perfect in any way. We all have to deal with it. I dont care if your a lesbian or a martian or big foots sister....its not for me to judge. These few people who like to condemn want a reaction Deb...as long as you are struggling with them, they are getting their reaction. I could care less what they think, I come here to read words of wisdom by Deb! And to watch the funny videos!

Have a good weekend Deb! Enjoy the sunshine!!!

Enemy of the Republic said...

You know, Deb--these people still make me mad, but less so. Why? I think they are pathetic. I read Talk Wisdom as Loud Mouth did--their mode of arguing is to list verse after verse after verse. Speaking as someone who grades essays on the university level, I would give such a methodology of citation an F. Why? Where is the writer? He/She is effectively saying: I am not present, I have no mind, no thoughts, no intellect--instead I will rely solely on one book, even if it is a sacred text, to do the talking for me. The effect this has on the reader is the following:

1. Boredom
2. Remianing even more unconvinced
3. An inability to even follow the thinking because who is writing the article--the quotes from the Bible or the writer.

Yes, I know the fundamentalists Christians will answer that God inspried this writer, or the words of the Bible defeat Satan...but when Jesus defeated Satan in his 3 temptations, he didn't beat him over the head with verses; instead he answered verse for verse. Jesus recognized the source of the temptation and answered it succintly. These people prefer showing off their biblical know-how without any interest in convincing anyone other than those in their camp. It's poor writing and even worse debating. Let them rant. They dig their own hole.

~Deb said...

Loud Mouth: Christine likes to spew up a bunch of scriptures that don’t apply to whom she speaks of. It’s ridiculous really. Then she wants to blame men for the main reason why some women are lesbians. Nice, huh?

Catch: Thank you, and I totally appreciate the fact you visit me and you’re entertained by those ridiculous videos I make! (hehe) The fact is, I need to let people know my beliefs, and what I feel to be true as far as what the bible says about homosexuality. My entire being and purpose being here on earth is to inform others that “they’re okay”. I truly believe that with all my heart. I need to share with them my knowledge and my beliefs, so that they can figure out for themselves what’s true or not. I cannot force-feed them my beliefs, but I can share it, tell it to many people out there, via my blog as well as my book, and hopefully they’ll come to the conclusion that God loves each and every one of us equally. Enjoy your weekend, Catch!

Enemy: Don’t even waste your energy getting angry. It’s not worth it. Inform them, as you do so well on your blog and in my comment section. What these “Christians” do is basically read the text, yet they don’t even understand or delve into what they really speak of. Then, they grab some scripture from left field that doesn’t apply to the people they preach it at. You’re right---it’s as if they have no mind at all. They have diarrhea of the mouth, pouring out words from a book that they don’t even have a clue about. They can’t answer questions on their own. Interpret what it means. Look into what it means- don’t just read one sentence from a huge paragraph and call it quits! Go further! Dig deeper. Their understanding is limited, Susan, and it’s sad that there’s no room for more learning… This is why we’re here to begin with—to learn from one another and help one another in the name of love. All you can do is inform them…don’t get angry. Not worth it---you’re too good for that!

~Deb said...

P.S. I find myself skimming most of Talk Wisdom. I can look in my bible if I want to read a ton of scriptures. Maybe that's the reason she has very little readers?

Brett said...

Hi, Deb. I’ve only recently come across your great blog though I read some run-ins between you and Dani awhile back.

I’ve been reading Christine for some time too and I just have to remind myself that what she’s doing is idolatry. She quite literally worships the scripture because to Christine and her buddies there is no separation between God and the scripture – they are one and the same. As a result they get stuck on issues that don’t really matter and it is impossible for them to accept or even really hear anyone who might not agree with them. Fundamentalism 101. I really think Christine means well, she’s just wrong. :)

I’m really looking forward to your book.

~Deb said...

Brett: Thank you so much for stopping by! You're absolutely right! She worships the scriptures and not God. I go by scriptures, however, my relationship with God is much more important than anything. In fact, the more closer I am with God, the more the scriptures jump out at me. The passages are alive, whereas to Christine and Mark, the words are flat and regimented...they have no life...only rules and regulations, as well as tools to hurt others who are different from them.

Again, thank you for taking the time to comment, Brett.

Mark said...

I’ve been reading Christine for some time too and I just have to remind myself that what she’s doing is idolatry. She quite literally worships the scripture because to Christine and her buddies there is no separation between God and the scripture – they are one and the same.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:1-5

Yep, according to the 'word' of God, God is the word. Why don't ya'll just write your own Bible and be done with it already?

~Deb said...

But the question is, do you have a relationship with God? Or do you have a relationship with using the words of the bible as a weapon?

Mark said...

actually that's not the question. The question is when will you make Christ the ruler of your life and stop denying His authority?

As far as scrpiture being used as a weapon, what better weapon would one use inorder to refute evil and Satan?

~Deb said...

Christ is the ruler of my life. Why do you think I blog so much about God and base my writings upon the trinity? For someone who preaches and uses profanity along with a massive dose of insults, you sure do use hypocrisy in order to get your point across.

Do you make Christ the ruler of your life? Doesn’t sound like it by the way you hurt and insult others.

Who’s evil, and who’s Satan? Do you think I’m Satan, Mark?

Brett said...

Mark, I understand the 'Word' in that passage to be Jesus, not the scripture itself. The reality is that the scripture was written, translated, compiled and voted on by MEN. God and the written scripture are most certainly not the same thing.

Crassius Maximus said...

If you believe in your religion enough to want to spread the word then point others towards the actual TEXT, in this case the Bible. Beating people over the head with your interpretation of it is wrong because your interpretation of it may be wrong. Urging people to get with God is totally cool, but allow THEM to read the text and draw from it. Don't try to BE God, just because you are well versed in the Bible, encouraging others to get with God is the way to go, NOT condemnation.
Those that try to condemn you, Deb are NOT the ones blessed with that power. Mark, you ain't got it like that home boy. In the words of Tupac Shakur: Only GOD can judge me.

~Dawn said...

Enemy of the State- That example you made about quoting verses without context or opinion was very useful to myself. Thanks

~Deb - I look forward to your ideas in the next book as well. Keep on, keeping on!

Christinewjc said...

Deb wrote:

"Christine from “Talk Wisdom”, rectifies her belief that God condemns homosexuality with these verses" (see verses in blogpost)

then added this:

"Do you see anywhere in these scriptures, where it says that Jesus condemns homosexuality? What these “Christians” do is twist the scriptures in order to bash homosexuals. They take passages from the bible and fit it to their preferences."

Earth to Deb?

The Bible verses I posted were in response to what you wrote in this post at my blog:

Deb wrote: When I speak of spiritual experiences, I speak of the Holy Spirit talking and moving within me.


I responded with several Scriptures that tell us what God's Word says (concerning the Holy Spirit's leading).

Now go back and read the verses. I pray that you will see that the Holy Spirit living within the believer does not lead a person away from the truth of God's Word. Other kinds of "spirits" indwelling a person might do that, but not the Holy Spirit.

I find it quite telling that you didn't link to that particular thread at my blog, Deb.

Mark posted an awesome quote from Dr. John MacArthur that totally demolishes your heresy regarding this quote of yours:

Mark wrote: "Here is Deb's word, not God's..."

Deb wrote: "If you believe that Jesus is Lord and proclaim it with your mouth, then you are automatically saved!!!"

Mark: "Wrong! and foolish."

Mark shared a John MacArthur quote:

What does the Bible teach about the relationship between salvation and repentance? First, it teaches that repentance is essential to salvation. One cannot truly believe unless he repents, and one cannot truly repent unless he believes. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin (but they are not synonymous terms). Acts 11:18 and 2 Peter 3:9 are two of the many verses that teach that repentance is necessary for salvation. Perhaps 2 Timothy 2:25 best sums up the relationship between repentance and saving faith when it speaks of "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (see also Acts 20:21).

Second, the Greek word for repentance (metanoia) means "to have another mind," but it cannot properly be defined to exclude a sense of hatred of and penitence for sin. The biblical concept of repentance involves far more than merely a casual change of thinking. Biblically, a person who repents does not continue willfully in sin. Repentance is a turning from sin, and it always results in changed behavior (Luke 3:8). While sorrow from sin is not equivalent to repentance, it is certainly an element of scriptural repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Finally, despite what is being widely taught today, affirming that repentance and acknowledgement of Jesus' lordship are necessary to salvation does not "add" anything to the requirement of faith for salvation. It is not "faith plus repentance" that saves, but rather a repentant faith. The notion that salvation is possible apart from a genuine, heartfelt repentance, which includes a deep hatred of sin, is a relatively new one, neither believed nor taught by the people of God until the twentieth century.
(above written by Dr John MacArthur)

You need to read the following articles:

Would Jesus sanction sin?

Reprobate Theology: The homosexual seduction of the American church

Patriarchs of the Christian Faith, Early Writers Clearly Condemned Homosexuality

God's Standard Regarding Homosexuality

Just so you don't miss this comment over at gay christian movement watch from a commenter named "Taressa" to a gay christian movement advocate named "Brian":

I just wanted to send you a response to your post about the lack of scriptural references condemning homosexuality. Please read Lev. 18:22, 20:13, and Romans 1:26-27.

Also there is 1Cor. 6:9(KJV) that states,

9Know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicator, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

NIV

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Amplified

9Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the
impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

There you go Brian. Now, I would like for you to show me scriptural references that condone homosexuality. What this really boils down to is sin. Not “gay” sin or “straight” sin but SIN and until you see it for what it really is, it won’t matter how many scriptural references I send you.

Also if you send me scriptures, please don’t send me scriptures about God’s love that many homosexuals use out of context. God’s love is not the question, it is how do you line up with His Word. I am not judging you but from what I have read from your other posts, you are quite content with your lifestyle despite it
being contrary to sound doctrine.


Lastly, I wanted to include a portion of an email from a dear blogging friend over at gay christian movement watch. This person has been reading and studying our convos and has given me permission to share the following:

gcmwatch:

THANK YOU for you diligence to expose false doctrine. I wanted to point out in your latest post a case in point with Deb.

You, according to scripture, attacked her false beliefs. She attacked your character. You gave the scripture, she gave her opinion of you. This is exactly what we are pointing out at gcm watch. There is a reason why they will not engage other Christians with scripture. They are either (1) afraid (2) hate it (3) know there doctrine cannot be supported.

We need to hammer this home. Her first sentence about concentrating on homosexuality is evasive and tactical. She wants you to feel guilty and therefore abandon what you are saying. And she wants to refocus anyone's attention on perceived personalities flaws (yours) instead of what the scripture is clearly saying. She wants to focus on the good news. But the good news is "REPENT for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." That was Jesus FIRST sermon. Matt 4:17. And notice it came immediately after his tangle with the devil.

Christine, I don't know of any other false doctrine movement which fits the bill better than the gay christian movement.
Also let me explain why I write "gay christian movement" as such.

Once the word Christian is paired with a sin condition as an unrepentant adjective, it loses it power as a reflection of the Living Christ. So I decapitalize it to emphasize that. It would be the same if someone would call themselves a "prochoice christian" or a "adult film star christian". We have to take back the standard of holiness by putting a difference between what is holy and unholy. Lev 10:10

Christinewjc said...

Brett wrote:

Mark, I understand the 'Word' in that passage to be Jesus, not the scripture itself. The reality is that the scripture was written, translated, compiled and voted on by MEN. God and the written scripture are most certainly not the same thing.

I have a question for you Brett. After saying that "God and the written Scripture are most certainly not the same thing" and claiming that "Scripture was written, translated, compiled and voted on by men," how do you reconcile such beliefs with Jesus' own statements in his prayer to God the Father, "Your word is truth. Sanctify them with your truth"? (See John 17:17)

The Bible is God's Word to all mankind. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.

2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalms 12:6; 119:105, 160; Proverbs 30:5

Perhaps this post might give you a better historical perspective, too.

~Deb said...

Christine: If you’re going to use scriptures from Corinthians, about homosexuality, then finish the passage. It states that through Christ we are all saved. We were once that way – which we were bound by the law, but through Christ we are saved.

Romans = lust. Love is not lust, Christine. That passage is concerning promiscuity.

Leviticus? Come on now. Then condemn those who shave their beards and eats shellfish.

Old old old.

You have nothing. All you have are scriptures that refer to evilness. Homosexuality is not evilness. I feel bad for you that you spend so much time focusing on lesbians.

Are you that repressed? And, how can you be apart of monitoring the gay community? Are you that bored? I seriously believe that your motives are all out of repressed feelings of homosexuality. That’s the only conclusion I can come up with when people like you and Mark spend so much time and effort on us.

God bless you for the effort!

Loud Mouth said...

Deb, have you noticed how many times this closeted lesbian Christine character links her blog on here AND she has the nerve to specify which post to link? She has no readers to begin with! Her blog sounds like blah blah blah blah blah! Sista has no spirit! She has no mind of her own. Totally brainwashed.

This chick will write another biblical novel.



Yo Christine, are you bored with hubby and kids? Is this the reason why you're obsessed with Deb's life?

BWAHAHAHA!


Peace out man! ^_^

Enemy of the Republic said...

For the life of me, why do all these Christians gang up on gays? If they are in sin, is it your problem? Why are you pointing at the splinter when the beam is in your eye? Let God decide. If you are thinking in terms of the epistles in which members of the Christian body are instructed to help their brother/sister in sin, well--I think you have done enough helping for a thousand years. Be done with it! Get past your homophobia and stop calling it anything else, because you wouldn't be so obsessed with gays unless you claudestinely hated them. Really, we have a war going on in Iraq, poverty in our major cities, fathers killing their children and teenagers committing suicide over untreated depression. Let's save lives, not forge more chains in the I Am Right With God And You're Not Contest. It is absurd.

Mark said...

Deb, have you noticed how many times this closeted lesbian Christine character links her

Deb, have you noticed how many times loud mouth, aka the wanna be boy living in momma's basement hoping to be a gangsta but remains a little buckwheat with a stolen dell keyboard, is just so nasty towards others who he disagrees with? I refuse to put up with his nonsense anymore. I will take my comments elsewhere if he does not cease with his nastiness. I mean that, I really do. I do. really mean it.

Oh and Mr Maximus,
I did cite verse dude. I know I am an idiot, that's why I always compare my idiotic thoughts against scripture. I just wish Deb would.

Loud Mouth said...

Go 'head my brotha RACIST! So Mark isn't only prejudiced against gays, he hates black people.

MARK IS A BIGOT! You need GOD brotha!

Why would you think I was black to begin with? Because of Arsenio Hall's picture you ignorant bigot?

Hey Deb, I think Mark is Christine's husband. They both need one another. I bet you they are married.

I also bet they both wear white hoods.

Jon said...

Christine and Mark are just disgusting human beings who claim to be Christians. Why waste your time on such lifeless souls?

Mark said...

loud mouth,
You make me laugh, thanks.

But at the same time you never really say anything, nothing, your mouth is moving but no content, nothing but poor chat room dribble pre 1993 at that.

I am a racist?
I am married to Christine?
You brother, need an edumaction if that's all you got. You can't stand it that Deb has a dialoge with others that think like adults, Hummm. LOL!

Advice: 1. Go upstairs and thank your mother for letting you live in her house rent free.

2. Buy some hair gell, get your nails done, and get a full time job. You will feel better about yourself, I promise.

3. Calling others a BIGOT, like your boss that let you go, does not help you.

4. Saying I, and others that call you on your dribble, are KKK members with our "white hoods" holding you down is a classic 101 psychology shift response. I guess that's all you have left, besides your free basement residence in Mommies basement.

Now, for once in your life get upstairs young man and ask Mommmy if you can help her out tomorrow.

Mark said...

Christine and Mark are just disgusting human beings who claim to be Christians. Why waste your time on such lifeless souls?

jon,
"disgusting human beings!!!!???

How dare you ascertain Right from Wrong! you Bigot! Does anyone see the irony here? anyone? anyone? Buhler? Buhler?

Hi Deb! :)

Loud Mouth said...

HAHA!!!!! Mark, your comment is so self-explanatory!

Christine, the closeted lesbo says this on Mark's blog:

Christinewjc said...
"Excellent post Mark! I linked to your post in my recent blogpost Confronting the Deception of Reprobate Theology.

Keep up the great work exposing Deb's errors and responding with biblical truth against her heretical worldview and statements. Deb lashes out and is angry with us because, quite frankly, her argument is with God's Word, not us."


Oh Mark, great post! Oh Mark, I love what you wrote! Oh Mark, more of your hateful gospel! Oh Mark! Oh Mark! Oh Mark!

Maybe there's hope for Christine after all, since she's so hard up for Mark.

I guess Christine agrees with Mark's views as a prejudiced homophobe who's also a racist and hates black people.

Now get back to your klan and burn some crosses you stupid bigot!

Mark said...

loud mouth,

Like I said, the elevator goes to the top floor, but the doors just don't open for you, do they big boy?

You can call me names, but names don't stick on me because I am rubber and you are glue. What ever you say bounces off me and sticks on you, 'cause you are glue.

Damn! maybe I should get my kid to help me respond to your nonsense.

Mark said...

Maybe there's hope for Christine after all, since she's so hard up for Mark.

I thought being 'gay' was ok? Why would there be a need for hope loud mouth?

Did God's fingerprint on your heart just say summfin that was the exact opposite of your current world view? Say it ain't so!

Busted! lol

Jon said...

The ironic part regarding Mark is, he calls himself a Christian, yet he seems to have a psychological problem and a hatred for everyone except Christine of course. What concerns me is his level of intelligence, which in my opinion amounts up to zero. Mark isn’t a Christian as he states, he’s a sad man who’s probably lonely and has nothing better to do on a Friday night, except to mock and make fun of blacks and gay people.

This dialog isn't productive, nor is it beneficial to your readers, Deb. I would consider censoring some of Mark's comments, and sadly enough, some of Loud Mouth's, only due to his anger as well. It's a bit distracting, since you are speaking about a crucial topic in a Christian way.

~Deb said...

Enemy of the Republic: Well, it’s funny, because when I bring up the scripture about having the log in your own eye, they lash out on me and tell me that’s the same old scripture that every gay person uses---YET---they’ll use the same Corinthians’ scripture that they don’t finish…for instance:

“Don’t you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshippers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers—none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God” ~1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Radical Christians will fire this off to the gay and lesbian community as a warning that they’re not getting into heaven. But, they fail to read off the next verse:

Continued on...

“There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.” ~1 Corinthians 6-11

Idol worshippers {putting anything before God or worshipping another God} can be seen as many things. Some people even put off going to church to take care of their toddlers at home. Some don’t attend church due to everyday life that gets in the way. So, in some people’s eyes, that’s idol worshipping—even though these people love God with all their heart. Do you think they’re going to hell because of this?

Adulterers. Clearly we all know what this word means. This is having an extramarital affair. This hurts, and it hurts the entire family involved. In the bible, it does state that anyone who marries a divorcee can be considered an adulterer if their ex-spouse is still alive. So then, do they still go to hell? Maybe just a huge sign with a letter “A” may get thrown around their neck. What year is it?

Male prostitutes. Clearly this is self-explanatory. Making a buck to have sex is not out of love.

Homosexuals. Oooh the word makes those radical Christian holy rollers shiver with disgust. But, what they are coinciding this with is prostitution as well as sexual immorality/promiscuity. To have sex with absolutely anyone or any gender.

For instance:

“That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.” ~Romans 1: 26-27

All of this is out of promiscuity. It clearly states that they “burned with lust”. Two people who love one another in a monogamous relationship do not burn together in their lust as the foundation of their union. Yes, there are promiscuous homosexuals out there, as well as promiscuous heterosexuals too. So for me, to interpret this “popular scripture” for those who hate homosexuals, I would definitely say that this stems from the lack of self-control of sexual desire. This is not of love; this is lust. Back in the Roman days when they had wild orgies and ran around having sex with anyone and everyone—this tells me they’re referencing the scriptures during that time period.

Christine and Mark don’t understand the difference between lust and love. They think that all homosexuals are evil. That’s their bag. If they want to believe that, then so be it. I don’t believe that, because I know that I’m not evil and my partner is not evil.

As far as Loud Mouth and Mark---------the conversation between you two isn’t productive as Jon pointed out. Please refrain from one another and just call it a night if you can’t converse like civil adults, or debate in a healthy way. I’m not sure if any of these debates are healthy, when most minds are closed here.

~Deb said...

P.S. Mark, the basement bit is getting old now. (ha)

Mark said...

The ironic part regarding Mark is, he calls himself a Christian, yet he seems to have a psychological problem and a hatred for everyone except Christine of course.

Thank you DR jon. When exactly did I call myself a Christian? and please provide some proof for my "hatred for everyone".

What concerns me is his level of intelligence, which in my opinion amounts up to zero.

What concerns me, is you actually believe yourself.

Mark isn’t a Christian as he states, he’s a sad man who’s probably lonely and has nothing better to do on a Friday night, except to mock and make fun of blacks and gay people.

I guess I am talking to God now. You see skin color over the computer, and you see my heart on this Friday night. Your right jon, I could not have asked for a better comment to record. thanks!

This dialog isn't productive, nor is it beneficial to your readers, Deb.

LOL! and what would be jon, ?
productive
beneficial

Would I be a bigot if I asked how one as samrt as you determined such?

Mark said...

Adulterers. Clearly we all know what this word means. This is having an extramarital affair. This hurts, and it hurts the entire family involved.

But if I really LOVE and I am faithful to my 'new love', not my current wife who btw is a real bitch, and I want to marry her, is that OK with God? Will God bless my new marriage and be OK with the times I had sex with my soon to be new wife?

Gosh I hope He will.

Deb, what about that part in the Bible that says any man that even looks at a woman in lust has committed adultry in his heart? I do that almost daily. I can't help it. I work with alot hot babes. Ya think God is serious? or should I pick a new Bible version?

Also, why is repentance important again? or is it? You've been most helpful before. I just feel like I can't do all God wants me to do, it's like impossible! I worry about that. Help me.

~Deb said...

Mark: Wait- you’re confusing me here. Your “new love” – and your current wife? Are you telling me you’re about to commit bigamy? Or, you can just get yourself a big polygamist colony…that’s up to you my friend.

You said, ” Deb, what about that part in the Bible that says any man that even looks at a woman in lust has committed adultery in his heart? I do that almost daily. I can't help it. I work with a lot hot babes. Ya think God is serious? Or should I pick a new Bible version?”

If you stop working for a strip club, then I think your problem would dissipate greatly. However, it does say that in the bible, but again, like I said, I believe that through Christ, our sins are covered. Jesus paid the price in full. We’re human. We all look from time to time.

See, if we have a problem with “sin” itself, then repentance is just the first step. It’s asking God to help you with a problem. (Homosexuality not being one of them of course.) I know how much you love to hear that.

Monogamy is the way. If you have problems within your marriage and you happen to think your wife is a “female dog”, I don’t know what to tell you. Why did you marry her in the first place if you think so badly of her?

Are you condemning everything she does? I can imagine the dinnertime conversations. Let me know when you two are having that lobster dinner. I’ll be sure to bring my bib!

Loud Mouth said...

Ooooooooooooh brotha, if my man is having porgies, I wanna come up in his joint to have sum dinna wit da’ bigots! Hey Marky Mark, you know how those black peeps love their porgies! Mmm mmm mmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Mark said...

Gee thanks Deb. I was worried for a moment that God would not accept my fleshly desires as being Holy and Blessed by Him. I just have a problem with knowing which parts of what Christ said are still true today. I did not know the perfect Holiness of Christ, or God changes over time. It is 2007 after all! what was I thinking?

If you stop working for a strip club, then I think your problem would dissipate greatly

But it pays the bills and puts food on the table for my kids. Plus like you said, we all 'look' and what's wrong with that?

I believe that through Christ, our sins are covered. Jesus paid the price in full. We’re human. We all look from time to time.

Your right! I just don't feel right sometimes doing that. I guess I'll get over that feeling once I understand the truth about why Christ died for me. I am begining to feel free now after talking to you. I guess I should not feel remorse or regret, I am human after all and Christ saved me. Wow! that's awesome.

Why did you marry her in the first place if you think so badly of her?

I don't think badly of her, I just need more than she can offer. I love her, I really do. But I need more. You understand.

Are you condemning everything she does?

No! She doesn't do anything. I use to love her, but now I am not so sure. There is this other woman that I have fallen in love with. She treats me like I have never been treated before. She really really loves me and I love her. God will be OK with that I am sure. Love is something we have no control over, it just is and is NEVER wrong! right? I am sure my kids will understand once I explain to them that LOVE is what matters most.

Thanks Deb!

Nancy said...

One of my family members is over 90 years old, and it has become quite clear over the years that she has repressed her true self (lesbian) her whole life. Red flags everywhere to a ridiculous degree...it's obvious to all of us but her. We laugh about it, but she is a miserable, unhappy woman, and my heart breaks for her. She is widowed and has two grown children, two grandchildren, and one great-grandchild. Pretending she is something else has never made her or anyone around her happy.

Or straight, for that matter.

Brett said...

“After saying that "God and the written Scripture are most certainly not the same thing" and claiming that "Scripture was written, translated, compiled and voted on by men," how do you reconcile such beliefs with Jesus' own statements in his prayer to God the Father, "Your word is truth. Sanctify them with your truth"? (See John 17:17)”

Christine, if you read the whole chapter John 17 we again get the picture that Jesus himself is the living word, not the written scriptures. Or are you suggesting that one is sanctified by the scriptures and not Jesus? The scripture does not point to itself as “the word of God,” the scripture points to Jesus as the word of God.

“The Bible is God's Word to all mankind. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.”

With this statement you make faith in the Bible as important as faith in God. You have it wrong. According to the Bible, Jesus is the supreme source of truth, not the Bible itself.

QUASAR9 said...

The Bible shouldn't be used to bash anyway
Maybe, the bible shouldn't be used at all, other than to prop-up tables & chairs unstabable of their feet.

Perhaps the best use for a big bible is as a door stopper!

Mark said...

With this statement you make faith in the Bible as important as faith in God. You have it wrong.

Really?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:1-5

Are you saying God and Jesus are not One?

"I and the Father are one."
John 10:30

John 17 we again get the picture that Jesus himself is the living word, not the written scriptures.

If Jesus is the living word as you say, would not the word be perfect? like Jesus? that was easy :)

Luke 24:44-45, "Now He said to them, 'These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. "

2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Brett, you have a little problem don't you? You want God's word to be different from God. Why is that ya think? If God is perfect, why would His word not also be? Humm....maybe His perfect word does not settle well with you?

Gary Baker said...

Brett,

"According to the Bible, Jesus is the supreme source of truth, not the Bible itself."

Your argument contradicts itself. Christ was indeed the living Word and expression of God in the flesh. Therefore, his is the truth as he said. But he also upheld the scriptures as God's word. He taught from the repeatedly and upheld them as true. And if the Bible is the word of God, as I believe, there is no contradiction in believing in the Bible as God, because it is his word.

Spoke said...

Deb, Spoke here. Is this the type of result that you hoped your blog would achieve?
I can't believe these so-called adults acting like children leaving derogative comments and accusations...and they are Christian are they?
I'm outdoors helping fellow humans today, you know...love your neighbor stuff. Cutting grass, dump runs, recycling etc. Thought I'd take a blog-break...my time here has been wasted. Time for you to monitor the comments you get me thinks.
Email me, I'd love to hear from you.

Brett said...

gary baker:
"Christ was indeed the living Word and expression of God in the flesh. Therefore, his is the truth as he said. But he also upheld the scriptures as God's word. He taught from the repeatedly and upheld them as true. And if the Bible is the word of God, as I believe, there is no contradiction in believing in the Bible as God, because it is his word."

Gary, Jesus gave the scriptures authority but he didn't deify them as you're doing.

Gary Baker said...

Brett,

You'll have to pardon my imprecise expression before. When I wrote "believing in the Bible as God," my meaning was "believing in the Bible as you would believe in God." I do not worship the scriptures. I accept them as the true and authoritative word of God. And you are incorrect in your implication, if not your assertion: The scriptures had full authority before Christ appeared on earth in that form, for they were given by God. Christ acknowledged that they were authoritative. He conferred on them no authority they did not already possess. And contrary to what what some would have people believe, he canceled none of their authority either.

Miss 1999 said...

You're exactly right, you're not broken. You are the person you're supposed to be. Some of the people that have posted have proven that reading the Bible doesn't make you a Christian, anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car.

God Bless You-- As you well no, I am not without sin, so there's no stone in my hand.

*hugs and love*

Brett said...

Mark:
“Are you saying God and Jesus are not One?”

No, I am saying that God and the Bible are not One.

“Brett, you have a little problem don't you? You want God's word to be different from God. Why is that ya think? If God is perfect, why would His word not also be?”

Mark, you seem to think it logically follows:

1. God and Jesus are One and perfect.
2. The scriptures are perfect.
3. Therefore the scriptures are God.

The thing is you have yet to offer one scripture reference that actually says the scriptures and God are one and the same. So who has a problem?

kathi said...

Deb, you know that I love you with all of my heart. Have since day one. I know you take what I say with an open and receptive heart...your readers, not so sure. We're all very protective of you, the thing is, though, we don't need to be. You're a strong and secure woman with a very strong support group in 'real' life.
With that said, I honestly do not believe that Mark or Christine come here to condemn you, insult you, or to purposely hurt you. They're doing what they believe is the right thing to do, to share what they interpret God's Word to be. To do otherwise would be irresponsible of them, in God's view. They are condemning your lifestyle, but they are doing it out of their love for you. This is what I see. It's obviously not the popular view on your blog, and it can't be pleasant for them to get the shout outs they get from your readers who love you so much. But I believe they love you too. Tell me true, my sweet Deb, don't you believe they love and care about you?
We all get angry when we believe our God is being made a laughing stock of, example: Christ going crazy mad in the market place. He threatened violence, he yelled, he pointed fingers at those in the wrong. Some say He never raised His voice or got angry, we know that's wrong. He did, He definitely had righteous anger. You, Mark and Christine all have righteous anger, and you all voice it out of love.
Sometimes our human anger err's, says things it shouldn't, things that can't be taken back. Forgiveness, though, understands that, forgives and forgets, and goes on.

What hurts me most, in this debate here, are the cruel things said and thrown at Christine and Mark from your readers in the presumption that they (C & M) come here to insult or hurt you because they are cruel and uncaring people. I may not agree with everything they, or you, say, but I believe it's all done out of love. You, I know what you say is said out of love AND humor. Them, I don't know at all, but from reading their blogs when you link them, I see they're writing from their hearts and their love for God, too.

I'm so very sorry for being long winded. On a completely different matter, when is your new book coming out?

Enemy of the Republic said...

Deb,

Just ordered your book. I look forward to reading it.

Dr. Deb said...

The first sentence of this post is the most wonderful, Deb.

~Deb said...

I apologize for not being present on my blog and releasing comments as soon as possible---it's been crazy here. I will respond more tomorrow.

Thanks for your input and patience!

DaBich said...

Kathi ~ a reasonable voice in the quagmire. Very good. ALl these high school comments were getting old.
I see way too much tunnel vision here. We all need to live and let live.
Life is too short.
Deb ~ congrats on the new book !

Brett said...

Gary, I guess my words were imprecise as well. You said Christ "acknowledged" the authority of scripture, I said Christ "gave" the scriptures authority and your word choice is better. I didn't mean to imply that the scriptures had no authority before Christ. And you're right, he didn't cancel their authority, but he did challenge the legalistic manner in which many people apply them.

Mark said...

The thing is you have yet to offer one scripture reference that actually says the scriptures and God are one and the same. So who has a problem?

Please Brett, write this down and the Word was God.

..and yet I will again
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:1-5

Brett, maybe I am being unclear?? God is absolute truth, that absolute truth is God's word, in text and in one's heart. The Bible, God's word, is eternal, which you have already agreed, Christ confirmed.

~Deb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
~Deb said...

The only time I moderate comments, is if a person uses extreme profanity to hurt others – or spam. I really like to give people a chance to speak and hear what they have to say.

With others who do not believe that Christine or Mark came here to condemn me, then take a peek at some of their comments, even older ones, as well as their own blogs. Christine has agreed with Mark that I should be hit over the head with a pot, Mark has used profanity, insults and suggestive remarks to get his message across and Christine has told me that I’ve twisted scriptures and that my relationship has been nothing but pure lust and promiscuity- that it isn’t love. They’re both on the ‘gay movement watch’, where they go out looking to condemn others. And yes, I use the word “condemn”. God says we should not judge.

In the bible, it is clear that they don’t reference ONCE to homosexuals being in a relationship. And don’t give me the ‘well they don’t reference to rape, murder, and pedophilia’ bit. All of those hurt people. Even with homosexuals as well as heterosexuals, promiscuity is dangerous, and can hurt people emotionally and physically.

The bible says, “a man shall not lie with another man”------purely sexual. Leviticus = old law. (I won’t even get into that one.) Others are speaking from a lustful standpoint.

Do you really feel that my relationship with my partner is just an affair or one big orgy? That’s what the bible refers to, and anyone who feels that my relationship is just that, then they are sadly mistaken.

Kathie, you wrote, ”What hurts me most, in this debate here, are the cruel things said and thrown at Christine and Mark from your readers in the presumption that they (C & M) come here to insult or hurt you because they are cruel and uncaring people.”

What about the cruel words that these people have said about me, as well as my readers? These people sat there, judging, ridiculing others for their lifestyles, as well as their opinions. Do you really think that was out of love?

”They are condemning your lifestyle, but they are doing it out of their love for you.”

Really?… They’re doing it out of their “love” for me? Or are they simply doing this because they, themselves, have hidden deep seeded homosexual tendencies? One can assume that, but I’m going to leave that up to the people who read their words. Words hold power, Kathi, and I believe you can do either one or two things- edify and lift their spirits up, or you can tear them down (as well as apart) with hurtful words. Which do you feel they did to me? I’d suggest reading a few of their posts as well. (Mostly comment sections.)

Christine states on her blog: ”It is not "hate" that compels Bible-based Christians to warn the gay christian movement followers that what is being taught to them (and by them, in some cases) is a blatant form of "false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

Think about it!

Visually, and sensually, a "sheep's clothing" is all warm, white and fuzzy, isn't it? But it is just a costume, a kind of pseudo-covering to disguise what really lives underneath.”


So she is calling me a false prophet. Who’s to say whether or not my views are wrong? She’s telling me that my beliefs are wrong according to God’s word. But, if she says this, then why am I getting messages from God Himself, as well as from the bible? I believe in the bible 100%. I do believe that each person is brought up to believe differently- and they read the scriptures in a different light. There are so many translations, interpretations as well as different time erras.

She thinks that I’m a wolf in sheep’s clothing. If I were, then I would lash out in anger, calling her nasty names, using profanity to tear her down after a long heated debate when I was finally at my wit’s end. That’s what Mark does, this is also what our ol’ friend Dani does after a long debate, and you can see a little bit of this ‘lashing out’ by Christine after a while. I’ve never insulted them using profanity or intentionally hurt them with words. I’ve called Christine a liar a few times, due to her not telling the complete truth about me- she doesn’t know me. She reads, “Christian lesbian”, and then calls me a false prophet. She constantly throws stones at me, and sits there, crosses her arms, and feels that her job is done.

Judging is God’s job. I wonder what will happen to Christine when she gets up to the pearly gatess, and God asks her what she has done in order to edifty her brothers and sisters. She’ll explain how she condemned all mankind so that we wouldn’t get sucked up into the wide gate of hell.

It is wide, Christine. I totally believe that with all my heart.

Kathi, it’s as if someone tells you, “You don’t have a personal relationship with God! You don’t know God! You don’t read the bible and interpret it correctly! You’re a false prophet if you share your views!” And they said this due to being divorced and then having sought out a new husband. They believed all of Leviticus’ teachings and felt that you were committing adultery. (Purely a hypothetical scenario here!)

How would you feel? Wouldn’t you feel awful, because you know that your relationship with God is pure and real, and that they were judging you, based on your life and hardships? It’s not fair.

So, let me ask you again, do you really think that C & M’s motives were out of love?

For all of you asking when my book will be coming out- it's estimated by Sept or Oct. Thank you all who have bought my first book!

{{HUGS}} to Susan-Enemy of the Republic)

Matt-Man said...

It's a shame that closed minded social mores (especially in this country) make it hard for people to be themselves...Maybe someday. Cheers Deb.

Loud Mouth said...

Christian’s do not have a heaven or a hell to put homosexuals in…so quit worrying about and arguing about and debating about what Christian’s think of homosexuality. You need to worry about what GOD thinks about homosexuality. All a Christian can do is direct you to bible scriptures (GOD’s life instructions for all believers). GOD does the judging part and you will know where you stand when the time comes…just as Christians will!!!

It’s a fact that people really do not know what GOD’S TRUE WORD is. If it isn’t a fact, then why are people arguing and debating?

You do not know.

Mark and Christine do not know.

Deb, even Deb, does not know!

I don’t know.

HowevA, GOD knows. Who should we focus on now y’all? God or people? Those who think that Mark speaks with love are completely blind.

KATHI- Mark poked fun at me because I’m black and he assumed that I didn’t have, or what did he call it, “an edumacashon”. You’re another Christian who feels bashing homosexuals is ok in the name of God. What a shame.

j kohl said...

It is in the "Levitical" law in the Old Testament (which is also where the "ten commandments" are), and is given equal weight there to the rules about not eating "unclean" meat (like pork) and various seafood rules. So if you think about it, anyone who sincerely believes "gayness" is a sin, and yet eats shrimp or pork, is being a hypocrite. To believe this, one must also take the commandment decrying envy & avarice as "mortal sins", and capitalism must collapse!

Anonymous said...

If God created all alike, and all who believe on His Son and repent are equally saved just as all who do not believe and therefore do not repent are equally condemned, and His sun and rain shine equally on the good and the bad alike, then we must conclude that sexual sin — that is fornication, sodomy, and adultery — applies to everyone equally. And, by reason, it must be so that marriage is required of ALL who cannot or will not abstain from sex.

It’s not “gay” sex that is a sin — that is, same-gender sex — it is specific sexual acts performed and sexual circumstances that are. In other words, oral sex is not a sin when practiced in a marriage; however, it is a sin when practiced outside a marriage: not because oral sex in and of itself is a sin but because having any type of sex outside a marriage is a sin. Likewise, the practice of sodomy is not a sin only when it’s practiced between a gay couple, it is also a sin when practiced within a straight marriage; it’s because the act of sodomy is the sin and not sex between two gay people - that is, provided they are married.

“For with God there is no partiality.” This means that all are equal and all things — marriage, blessing, sin, salvation — are the same for everyone alike.

Gary Baker said...

j kohl,

Your statements have been about equating unclean foods with sexual sin have been made before, and I have pointed out before that the argument is fallacious. Discussions held by Paul and the apostles determined that the only dietary restrictions on new believers involved meat sacrificed to idols and drinking blood. On the other hand, the Levitical prohibitions on sexual sin are unique in that God actually pronounced judgment on unbelievers because of them.

As for capitalism collapsing, I see the greatest examples of envy and coveting coming from the social left. Their major argument always seems to go back to who "has more than their fair share" or "who is not paying enough." Socialist systems spread uniform misery, whereas capitalism has helped to lift millions of people out of poverty, fostered personal freedom, and created greater prosperity than any other economic system.

~Deb said...

And it's all in the bible for those who believe condemning people is acceptable.
*****************************

"Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong.

For instance, one person believes it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables.

Those who think it is all right to eat anything must not look down on those who won't. And those who won't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.

Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord's power will help them do as they should.

In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. Each person should have a personal conviction about this matter.

6Those who have a special day for worshiping the Lord are trying to honor him. Those who eat all kinds of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who won't eat everything also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.

For we are not our own masters when we live or when we die.

While we live, we live to please the Lord. And when we die, we go to be with the Lord. So in life and in death, we belong to the Lord.

Christ died and rose again for this very purpose, so that he might be Lord of those who are alive and of those who have died.

So why do you condemn another Christian*? Why do you look down on another Christian? Remember, each of us will stand personally before the judgment seat of God.

For the Scriptures say, " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.' "

Yes, each of us will have to give a personal account to God.

So don't condemn each other anymore. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not put an obstacle in another Christian's path.

I know and am perfectly sure on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.

And if another Christian is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died.

Then you will not be condemned for doing something you know is all right.

For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God. And other people will approve of you, too.

So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.

Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, there is nothing wrong with these things in themselves. But it is wrong to eat anything if it makes another person stumble.

Don't eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another Christian to stumble.

You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right.

But if people have doubts about whether they should eat something, they shouldn't eat it. They would be condemned for not acting in faith before God. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning."
~Romans 14:1-4

Did I twist any of this scripture?

Mark said...

Deb says Kathi, and I believe you can do either one or two things- edify and lift their spirits up, or you can tear them down

It is the perfect Holy law of God that prepares the heart for grace. No one has torn anyone down, execpt of few of your readers as Kathi rightly pointed out with a great deal of humility which I perhaps would not have shown.

~Deb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
~Deb said...

Mark,

Do you believe "hitting me over the head with a pot", as you and Christine had suggested, just because I'm a gay Christian will do me some good?

Do you believe calling me a pervert, and having rapists, murderers and pedophiles being the same as my relationship with my partner okay and out of love?

You said that "no one has torn anyone down". You told one of my readers that he has no education, due to his race. You've said a number of insults which tore ME down.

How can you call that 'out of love'?

Do you even know what love is?

Christinewjc said...

Deb,

Two clarifications are needed.

A. When I referenced the "false prophets in sheeps clothing," I was actually referring to the minister, pastor, or leader at your church who has been leading you and many others astray on this issue.

I think that you have been deceived about this one, particular issue and as a result, you are in danger of becoming a false teacher because of it.

You have been presented with numerous links to articles and commentaries that use the steadfast scholarly techniques of Biblical interpretation about homosexual behavior in the Bible:
1. exegesis
2. hermenuetics
3. Hebrew and Greek concordances to better understand the meanings of the era
4. Sola Scriptura (don't add or subtract anything from Scripture)
5. Scripture interprets Scripture (meaning, applying all of the above and taking the whole of Scripture into account when analyzing the text.)

Your choice to ignore such clear evidence (via all the articles, blogposts, and comments about this subject) is being done, quite frankly, at your peril.

Whether it takes 20 days or 20 years for your eyes to be opened on this issue, I just pray that the truth will one day set you free.

B. The "hit with a pot to the side of the head" was just one of Mark's usual humorous statements. When I read it, I viewed it in an entirely different context than you did. To me, it was as if Mark was saying to me (and any reader) that "it doesn't take a hit with a pot to the side of the head" (meaning, my own head) to understand (the issue)...etc. (I tried to locate the comment but couldn't find it.)

Quick note to Kathi -

Thank you for your very kind words. It made me feel that "at least someone here "gets my drift," so to speak! I teared up while reading it!

God bless

Loud Mouth said...

The Scriptures in the Bible that are used to condemn homosexuality, when read in full context, refer not to loving, homosexual adult relationships, but to various sins such as male prostitution, pederasty (having sex with young boys), pagan idolatry and orgies, inhospitality, and homosexual rape (to make a man "as a woman" was the ultimate insult, and was used to demonstrate supremacy over the victim). These are all forms of treating God or His creations with something other than love and respect.

It is easy to see why He would disapprove of these things.
There are six Scriptures that are commonly cited as "proof" that God hates gay people. Notice that, in the above paragraph, women aren't even mentioned. Likewise, lesbianism is only mentioned in one of those six Scriptures.

My general comment about the six common Scriptures is this:

The Bible has long been used to defend racism and slavery, the subjugation of women, wars, and the outright slaughter of anyone who was different. The Ku Klux Klan, the reign of Hitler, the witch hunts, and the Crusades were all purported to be efforts in the name of Jesus Christ! What's more, they were vigorously supported, or even developed by, one or more major church groups. The last two were backed or developed by the Catholic Church, and many are also convinced it was complicit in the Holocaust - to the extent that at the time of this writing, Israel is urging the Vatican to halt procedures to beatify Pope Pius XII as a saint until scholars are allowed to examine related documents.

Far from innocent, many other churches lent their support to various atrocities as well (i.e. both Protestants and Catholics to the witch hunts, white churches in the South to the KKK). All it takes is a little web research to see that this is true.

Scriptures have been taken out of context and used to promote hatred, abuse, and murder for centuries, supposedly on God's behalf. That's blasphemy of the worst kind!

In addition, the hypocrisy of using the Bible as an excuse to judge anyone should be obvious. No one has room to judge anyone else because we all fall short of the mark. I personally won't stand for it when people condemn me or Deb for being who we are, based on six Scriptures, taken out of context, while ignoring the entire remainder of the Bible. How dare someone lecture me when he's cheating on his wife? Or when she loves nothing better than viciously tearing people down? Or when they're in the car on their way home from church, plotting how to cheat their employees so they can reap more profits? I won't take it sitting down, and I would encourage you to gently remind any scorners that Jesus is the only one who has room to cast the first stone.

One last point: No one else knows what you and God have between you; your relationship with the Lord is a personal relationship. So for one person to look at another and say, "He's such a sinner. He can't be a Christian," or, "She's a lesbian, so you know she's going to hell," is to play mindreader and God. People who assume that God thinks the way they do are being presumptuous and egotistical. My prayer is that, through this ministry, less people will allow that kind of hypocrisy to affect their relationships with the Lord.

~Deb said...

Christine: If you’re referring to my minister or pastor who has given me this information, then you are mistaken. I have believed in my faith that homosexuality isn’t a sin, through spiritual experiences (the Holy Spirit) as well as reading the bible. All sources, which to me, are more powerful than a human’s word.

I don’t believe I am deceived on this one. It’s from God. How can God lie? And no, I don’t have demons speaking to me, Christine. The real danger is the condemning that you’re doing, because of your strong faith of your own. And that’s okay to have strong faith in which you believe with all your heart. Take for instance, a reader of mine named Sandalina. She believes that homosexuality is a sin, yet we can converse on a humanly level, where we can talk civilly, without tearing one another apart. She edifies me, encourages me, as well as prays for me, as I do for her. She is a prime example of “love”. She never ridiculed me. We have argued and had healthy debates, but never tore one another down. She has never said, “MY BELIEF IS IT”, and basically tossed mine aside. She respected my beliefs.

” You have been presented with numerous links to articles and commentaries that use the steadfast scholarly techniques of Biblical interpretation about homosexual behavior in the Bible.”

I have been reading the bible for a long time, from King James to the NLT version. Each and every one of them has come to the same conclusion for me. When I open up the bible, I pray and meditate upon it first, to help with my understanding of what it’s telling me. Do you do this? Do you pray before you read the bible? Or do you just read it and come to the conclusion that condemning those who are different from you is okay?

Loud Mouth: They sit comfortably behind their computers, while bashing us with bibles. Who should we believe---God or them? They should include all the other things that Leviticus throws at us. They don’t. They’re happy little cherry picking people who cannot tolerate homosexuals…as well as blacks. I’m glad you brought that up. (The black reference was to Mark, since he made racial slurs on here.)

Gary Baker said...

Deb,

Here's a suggestion if you really want to stop the Bible-bashing (which I think would be a good thing, and it is going in both directions). Don't proclaim homosexual behavior as righteous or unrighteous. It seems to me that most of the conflict comes from defending homosexuality as a behavior. There is no need to. You claim, correctly, that there are very few verses that address it negatively. It is just as correct that there are no verses that refer to it positively. The only type of relationship that is specifically called out in the scriptures for blessing is man and woman, two-become-one, proclaimed in Genesis and later affirmed by Christ. You claim their case based on scripture is shakey. In terms of scripture, you have no case at all. Even the example that you favor the most deals with a woman that is sinful and forgiven, not righteous to begin with.

If homosexuality is a sin, it is no worse than any other, and Christ saves from them all. Instead of trying to defend, why not simply proclaim that Christ will accept us no matter what? No Christian can argue with that.

~Deb said...

Gary,

"In terms of scripture, you have no case at all. Even the example that you favor the most deals with a woman that is sinful and forgiven, not righteous to begin with."

I'm not saying that homosexuality is "righteous"; I'm saying that it isn't a sin, in the terms of a loving relationship. It's evident that promiscuity is the sin. Even so, no one should be judging. We all fall short.

I most definitely have sins that I repent for, but most of all, I ask God for help on top of my repentance.

I have said numerous times, through the scriptures of Galatians, that Christ took away our sins through His sacrifice, as well as the old law, which we were bound by. Homosexuality WAS a sin. In Leviticus, it clearly states that. But, again and again as I have pointed out, so is eating shellfish and pork and shaving your beard. What then?

Promiscuity. Romans uses this. It does not refer to those who are in same sex relationships, it speaks of orgies and the boredom between heterosexual affairs.

Loud Mouth said...

The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever." All of God's promises are intended for every human being. This includes gay men and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and persecuted people who are homosexual!

We are all created with powerful needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the love we share with others, whether family or friends, partners or peers. Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator. This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of our human relationships.

NOT A SIN...NOT A SICKNESS:

For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their interpretation of scripture.

Other churches today are influenced by a century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness. Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing."

The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and lesbians should be accepted - just as they are-in Christian churches, and homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!

About The Bible:

The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and Christian people. It was written in several languages, embraces many literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its context. There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian denominations, all of which use the same Bible. Such differences have led some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church.

Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time. Approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching held that there was a two-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!

New Information Refutes Old Ideas

What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture? New scientific information, social changes, and personal experience are perhaps the greatest forces for change in the way we interpret the Bible and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation did not exist until the nineteenth century.

Most Christian churches, including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith. Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality, is of great significance. The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous assumptions and conclusions.

GENESIS 19:1-25

What was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of "homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.

Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yadha, usually means "have thorough knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors' credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape.

Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.

Several observations are important. First, the judgment on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly, why do all the other passages of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?

What was the Sin of Sodom?

EZEKIEL 16:48-50 states it clearly:

The people of Sodom, like many people today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create false gods or treat others with injustice.

LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13:

Christians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. But some ignore its definitions of their own "uncleanness" while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture distorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message. "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods.

Hebrew religion, characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17, repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of the Bible.

What is an "Abomination"?

An abomination is that which God found detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible homosexual relationships.

Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love, justice, mercy and faith.

ROMANS 1:24-27

Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles.

Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.

What is "Natural"?

Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles exchanged that which was "natural" for them, physin, in the Greek text, for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an "unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual lifestyle.

Romans 1:26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a meaning may be possible.

The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay relationships seen today.

THE OTHER VERSES...I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & I TIMOTHY 1:10:

Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.

In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind," as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some new translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations. The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.

The second word, arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy, but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning, "males" and the other "beds", a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain.

Conclusion...No Law Against Love:

The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love . . . against such there is no law.

One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14:

"...the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Need to do some heavy research my fundie friends.

Enemy of the Republic said...

I've said before that I don't view homosexuality as a sin, and I agree with Gary in that if indeed it is one, it is for God to decide as it is equal to any other. Until then, we should just agree to disagree as these arguments change little. I wonder why (this is not toward you, Gary) it is critical to determine whether Christiane and Mark are acting out of love? I personally have never felt attacked by Christine or Mark--but I don't feel any love either. I don't want to be yet another bible quoter, but love is patient, love is kind, it is slow to anger, it does not hold grudges. That is the love Paul describes as God's love, and it is the one we are called not only to feel, but to act upon. If love is indeed a verb, then countless verbal attacks seem unloving to me as an action, even if the intentions are from a sincere heart. I don't doubt Mark or Christine's faith or earnestness. We are all known by our fruits. I would be a liar if I said that I always showed Christian love; I don't. But in this case, the underlying emotions are moot; the actions show disdain, superiority and judgement. How is that love? I don't get it.

Dale Slamma said...

I’ve been following this debate for quite sometime now, and between Mark and Christine, I find nothing but absolute hatred and bigotry on their part. Anyone who says that they speak out of love is a twit. Think about it, they want to change someone who’s happy. What’s wrong with people? Yeah Deb, it’s out of love. Pardon my French, but, MY ASS!

Gary Baker said...

Deb,

If homosexuality was a sin, it is still a sin. Eating shellfish or the like was never named as a reason for judging or executing judgment on anyone other than Jews. The scripture refering to lying with a man as a woman was. I know that you are saying that it is not a sin in terms of a loving relationship, but as I said above there is no scripture to support that. And if Christ took away our sins, as you imply, then no relationship would be sinful. Why mention promiscuity if that is the case.

The only sexual ever mentioned as ordained by God is as described in Genesis. As I said before, as long as you keep saying not a sin, you will have conflict. Or you can let avoid the issue altogether and just say we can leave it up to God. It's your choice.

~Deb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
~Deb said...

Gary,

Is eating shellfish a sin? When you shave, do you feel guilty, because it’s a sin? Do you feel weird sitting on a couch while some woman may be menstruating? Do you feel awful, because you just inhaled a big pork chop? Leviticus applies to the old law. Christians do not follow these laws. Slavery would still be implemented then.

Leviticus does not apply to the New Testament. Jesus set the way for us.

Look at Galatians chapter two verses 17 through 21:

But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God’s approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me an gave himself for me. I am not one for those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

I mentioned promiscuity, due to the scriptures written in Romans and Corinthians, while referring to homosexuality. Some people do not know the difference between lust and love. Huge difference.

There are no references, nor scriptures that tell me that I'm committing a sin by loving someone while being in a relationship.

Jesus said absolutely nothing about it.

By faith, and only by faith, I believe that Jesus has died for all of my sins, as well as the old laws that no longer apply to us Christians, and the fact that we're all saved through the blood of Christ.

If you believe with all your heart that Jesus is Savior and profess with your mouth, you are saved. And yes, it's that simple.

Do you not have enough faith that Jesus paid the full price, Gary?

“You didn’t have enough faith,” Jesus told them, “I assure you, even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed you could say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it would move. Nothing would be impossible.” ~Matthew 17:20

Nothing is impossible. Faith will get you through everything.

SJ said...

Enemy told me about your blog and as always I did good heeding her words. Great discussion you have going here.

Am not a Christian or a reasearcher of ancient texts so I can't comment on that. I don't see why sexuality is an issue at all. I am sure whichever God one worships (I don't worship any) would rank it pretty low on the sin scale if at all :)

Loud Mouth said...

Enemy dear, it's all outa' hate sista! All outa' hate! Bunch of holy rollin' haters up in this joint. Did you scroll up where Mark refers to me as stupid, due to my heritage? REAL NICE!

Gary, you rambling rose on crack! Your reverse psychology is more like mental illness with no direction. Your theories and hypotheses are worth nothing. You don't even know what side you're on brotha. Step away from Deb's blog!

SJ, they're secret homo agents up in here. Nothing to see here, except for a bunch of bigots with a lot to say about Deb's lifestyle.

Thank me later, Deb! ^_^

Mark said...

loud mouth just quoted from an entire article with not one reference to it...Hummm
Like I said, your an idiot loudmouth, plain and simple,
i d i o t.
http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html

by Rev. Elder Don Eastman
©Copyright 1990 Los Angeles Universal Fellowship Press

Loud Mouth said...

And you don't reference anything brotha? Bless me Mark, for I have sinned. I referenced an article without reference to it through a dinky comment section. Will I go to hell for this? Will God punish me now?

Thanks for referencing it for me.

Bigot.
Racist.
Closeted homo.
Hypocrite.
Adulterer.

Bring it! C'mon brotha, you and your clan with the white hoods! Ignite those crosses and come chant on my lawn.

White trash!

Gary Baker said...

Deb,

"Is eating shellfish a sin? When you shave, do you feel guilty, because it’s a sin?"

No. Take a look at the Genesis right after the flood. What does God say to Noah about eating animals?

Jewish ceremonial laws and prohibitions were never given to Gentiles. Neither were they expected to be. This was confirmed by Paul and the apostles in the New Testament. The case that I point out deals strictly with a case where gentiles and unbelievers were judged by God for sexual misconduct.

"Jesus said absolutely nothing about it."

Jesus repeated Genesis when he said that for this reason a woman shall leave her father's house and join to her husband and the two shall become one. No other relationship was ever noted as considered by God except in a negative connotation.

"If you believe with all your heart that Jesus is Savior and profess with your mouth, you are saved."

Absolutely. And what are we saved from? Our sins. We can truthfully argue that Christ's blood covers our sins. It did nothing to make what is a sin into a righteous act. I am not debating your salvation in the slightest. I am contesting based on the scriptures your interpretation that homosexuality is not a sin. If you use the standard that Jesus said nothing about it, then you also have to deal with the fact that Jesus said nothing about bestiality, necrophelia, pedophilia, or polygamy. Yes. Jesus paid the full price for sin, but that was a sacrifice that redeemed people, not sins. If that were not the case, he would not have had to warn so many people about their sins and attitudes.

Loudmouth,

If I am displaying hatred, show me where. If I am denying the scriptures, show me how. Otherwise, I can see only one of us acting in an insulting manner.

~Deb said...

He says, ” “All the animals, birds, and fish will live in fear of you. They are all placed under your power. Now you can eat them, as well as green plants; I give them all to you for food. The one thing you must not eat is meat with blood still in it; I forbid this because the life is in the blood.”

But my question is, you’re basing this strictly on the Old Testament. Where does it say any of this in the NT, where Jesus states that homosexuality is a sin?

Nowhere.

That’s my point, Gary. So, shaving your beard is no longer a sin, eating shellfish is no longer a sin, and homosexuality, is no longer a sin.
OLD.

The fact that rape, pedophilia, bestiality, and other sins are all sins that hurt the flesh. Raping someone hurts. Pedophilia hurts---it’s sex with a child. Molesting children is hurting one physically and spiritually. How does two people of the same gender who are dating hurt other people?

I do see that you’re not saying I’m not saved, but I’m speaking in terms of loving one another and living in harmony with those who are different from each other- not in terms of evilness or sinfulness.

Does that make more sense of where I’m coming from?

Enemy of the Republic said...

Oh, trust me, Loud Mouth, I don't feel the love. And if someone is homophobic, they may very well be racist as well since their psychology is based on both their sense of superiority juxtaposed with their FEAR of the OTHER. My point is this: sometimes we need to worry about intentions and other times it doesn't matter. If one reads interviews with Ted Bundy, it is revealed that he grew up with a religious dogma and claimed to embrace Christ in his ending days. He still couldn't admit responsibility for the murders; he blamed it on porn. Now I am sure that Mr. Bundy (Mark-Christine; I know you are not like him)often had good intentions; in the killing of the college students, he said that he didn't want them to suffer. Nice, Ted, but the murder still took place. This is why I am always suspicious of intentions--the road to hell is paved with them and one can argue that even Hitler was showing empathy for the German people as he killed Jews, Gays, Slavics, Political Prisoners, Gypsies because he believed he was acting in Germany's best interests. I am deliberately exaggerating only to say that the fruits in this case speak volumes.

Gary Baker said...

Deb,

I'm sure that I can find people who claim that bestiality, pedophilia, and incest do not hurt anyone. (I didn't mention rape.) And anyway, harming the flesh is not the determining factor. You left out incest and polygamy. How do they hurt the flesh? Prostitution can be accomplished without harming the flesh. Is that no longer sinful? On the other hand, if I (hypothetical with me unmarried) met a woman who had herpes or aids due to prior indiscretions, and we fell in love, would it be sinful to marry since it could harm me? I can lie without hurting others. Is that okay? I can harbor hatred for others in my heart without hurting them. Is that okay?

The point I'm making is that your decision that homosexuality is not a sin is arbitrary. It has no scriptural foundation. When we discussed it last time you said that it was alright based on love and loyalty. If I love and am loyal to five wives, or to a single adult close relative that I marry, is that alright? Love and loyalty are essential, but to a holy relationship, but do they alone make the standard?

I can find scriptures that refer to homosexual activity as being judged. There is never any positive mention. If you rely on what Jesus did not mention specifically, you leave yourself open to a lot of things. He did specifically affirm marriage as an irrevocable commitment between man and woman.

All of which goes back to my original statement on this thread. If you proclaim homosexual activity as not sinful, you will never have peace on your blog. Decide whether it is more important to stop the bashing or declare a highly debatable point.

~Deb said...

Enemy: I totally feel that people do things with motives, whether it is for good or evil. You never know, we may end up meeting Hitler up in heaven. Who knows the works of God? We only see a small scope of things, while God sees the bigger picture.

Gary: Bestiality = unclean = hurts the body physically with diseases. Pedophilia = hurting a child physically, emotionally, as well as spiritually. You did mention rape- pedophilia. I’m not sure if you read what I wrote. Promiscuity can hurt people physically, due to the consequences of diseases, STDs, and the emotional torture of people falling in love with someone who isn’t loyal. It hurts. Big difference.

” if I met a woman who had herpes or aids due to prior indiscretions, and we fell in love, would it be sinful to marry since it could harm me? I can lie without hurting others. Is that okay? I can harbor hatred for others in my heart without hurting them. Is that okay?”

No, it would be sinful for her to keep that in- (lying). Lying with others is considered promiscuity. You can harbor hatred in your heart, but it’ll only hurt yourself. These questions are ridiculous, Gary.

” The point I'm making is that your decision that homosexuality is not a sin is arbitrary. It has no scriptural foundation.”

There is no scriptural foundation that it isn’t a sin. So what’s your point? The Ten Commandments is quite clear on what’s a sin and what isn’t. Leviticus doesn’t give you a leg to stand on.

” All of which goes back to my original statement on this thread. If you proclaim homosexual activity as not sinful, you will never have peace on your blog. Decide whether it is more important to stop the bashing or declare a highly debatable point.”

People have different beliefs all around the world. Is there religious peace on earth PERIOD? No. Each person believes differently. Even within the Christian religion, we all have different sectors and beliefs, which set us apart. Our relationship with God should be the prime focus, and my focus also depends on speaking my beliefs on this blog as well as in my books.

There’s never peace among people. There is peace among God & people when they come to terms about what their truth is.

Gary Baker said...

Deb,

"Leviticus doesn’t give you a leg to stand on."

Leviticus 18:22 - 26 does. That's where non-believers were judged based on sexual misconduct.

"Promiscuity can hurt people physically, due to the consequences of diseases, STDs, and the emotional torture of people falling in love with someone who isn’t loyal. It hurts. Big difference."

You can suffer any of those things while still being in a committed relationship. And the last time we discussed this, I had a difficult time understanding what you meant by "committed." You gave me the impression that you thought it was alright to end the relationship if you fell out of love or whatever. What's the difference between that and an uncommitted relationship or promiscuity?

"Lying with others is considered promiscuity."

At what point? When is it promiscuity and when is it not just a series of committed relationships?

These questions are not ridiculous. They go back to the same idea - You are making up answers based on what you feel is correct, without scriptural basis (i.e., arbitrary). IF they were not, you would not be contradicting yourself in your answers. In the first comment that you give, you cite bestiality as unclean and hurting the flesh. In the next set of comments, you seem to agree that it would be alright to get into a relationship that hurts the flesh as long as it isn't promiscuous. You cite STDs as problems for some relationships (prostitution, promiscuity, etc.) but not others.

My point is that you change your stated requirements for what constitutes a non-sinful relationship to exclude homosexuality without regard to scripture. Scripture classifies things as good or evil, clean or unclean, sinful or not, on their own merit. The requirement to justify whether things are hurtful to the flesh is a human need. How often are things justified in the scriptures as being hurtful to people, and how often are they simply defined as wicked in God's sight?

You are quite correct that there are different interpretations and there will probably never be peace. The reason that I decided to comment on this at all (considering that we both know where the other stands) is that you keep coming back to the idea of "Bible bashing" in your blogs. What you either don't realize or don't acknowledge is that your supporters do just as much bashing as your detractors. You often write about how scriptures should not be used to separate people or cause conflict. You have the opportunity to demonstrate this. You can avoid a highly debatable topic and instead emphasize the grace that God gives to us all, or you can continue to stir things up. It's your blog. I respect that. I respect you. I know that you are my sister in Christ, despite the fact that we disagree on this. But if you are going to continue as you are, you might consider whether it's really appropriate to complain about Bible bashers. You have the choice as to whether or not you will encourage it.

Loud Mouth said...

Gary if you don't like da'blog brotha, then seek other waters. It's that simple man. Obviously you're intrigued by something on here.

Enemy of the Republic said...

Your blog, Deb, your rules.

~Deb said...

Gary,

We simply disagree regarding Leviticus. I don’t go by the old laws because they do not apply to me, or any Christian technically. Do you really believe that a committed relationship between two people who love one another is hurtful? And what if they had a past that resulted in an STD? Those are crosses to bear. We all have crosses to bear; some being worse than others.

” You are making up answers based on what you feel is correct, without scriptural basis (i.e., arbitrary). IF they were not, you would not be contradicting yourself in your answers.”

I’m not making up answers based on what I feel. I am giving you answers based upon what I believe, and what I have studied from the bible. What is so contradictory with my answers? I keep giving the same ones over and over again to you.

” You are quite correct that there are different interpretations and there will probably never be peace. The reason that I decided to comment on this at all (considering that we both know where the other stands) is that you keep coming back to the idea of "Bible bashing" in your blogs.”

I agree with you. I don’t think there’ll ever be peace regarding religion and spiritual matters. The point of my ‘bible bashing’ post, was that Christine referred to a ton of scriptures, that could have been applied to ANY sin or ANY situation- but she chose to pick it strictly for homosexuality. She takes out scriptures that aren’t applicable, and places it where she sees fit. I know that people believe one way or the other, based upon scriptures, and that I don’t mind and I do not have any say in it, but when it doesn’t have anything to do with anything, then I have to speak up. Does that make a bit more sense of where I’m coming from?

” You often write about how scriptures should not be used to separate people or cause conflict. You have the opportunity to demonstrate this. You can avoid a highly debatable topic and instead emphasize the grace that God gives to us all, or you can continue to stir things up. It's your blog.”

I use scriptures to edify and encourage, however, when faced with people who try to make me into a heterosexual based on scriptures, I have my own ammunition of scriptures that I can fall on myself. The sad thing is Gary, I wish I can avoid a highly debatable topic, if there wasn’t so much bigotry and intolerance from other Christians. The reason why I even started this blog was to inform others of my faith, and what I believe to be true. Do you think I should hide in a closet and never tell anyone how I think or what I believe and not use the scriptures that I rely so much on? That’s my goal for this blog. And yes, some of the comments and debates get out of control, but other times, there are some productive dialogs on here. When it comes to religious topics and on top of that, homosexual issues, you’re going to get conflict due to childhood upbringings, different religious beliefs, and various Christian sectors that see things differently.

I don’t try to stir things up…I try to defend myself and inform. I want people to know where I come from, what I believe, and how God has helped me through my life. I do apologize if any of my content has offended you in any way. I appreciate your input.

Loud Mouth: Cool it “brotha”. Heh… ;)

Enemy: I don’t have rules, I just have strong faith and strong beliefs---just as you do. That’s why I love you girl!

Mark said...

Deb, after all your biblical study and book research, is there anything that God deems unholy / sin, even though those involved are happy with it? I think Gary is making a similar observation.


Gary if you don't like da'blog brotha, then seek other waters. It's that simple man. Obviously you're intrigued by something on here.

Buckwheat is alive and well! and can't keep his momma fried chicken hole closed long enough to lick his fingers. Again loudmouth, hair net & name tag, your key to your own house. I'll pray for those who have to listen to your black trash bigoted tongue.

~Deb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
~Deb said...

Mark,

Yes. If you look up the Ten Commandments and review the list, it should tell you quite clearly. Also, there’s an old saying, love your neighbor as you would yourself… I remember hearing that somewhere. Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor. Christianity isn’t all about wrath, anger and revenge. There are things in life that are unholy. Things that hurt people, lying, stealing, evil motives with intentions of hurting and murdering others. I mean, the list goes on and on, Mark. You categorize gays and lesbians as these evil little perverts who go around passing flyers on how to be gay. (Please exclude the pictures on your blog!!! ha) There are some gays and lesbians who give the true committed ones a bad name, just as there are good heterosexual couples whose reputations are ruined due to other promiscuous ones.

Stereotypes. It’s sad. Gary made an observation of separating Christians through the bible. When I’m faced with people who condemn me, while they have their own crosses to bear, I have to speak out and let them know that the scriptures I’m reading are the same as theirs…but I guess different interpretations applies.

Enough racial remarks…please.

Loud Mouth said...

My brotha’s obsessed with a lesbian when he’s this white trash pervert wankin’ off to Deb’s blog. Get back in your dark basement filled with millions of photos of Deb, with a cutout of your head placed upon her partner’s shoulders, to make it look like you’re her man. You’re like a weird trashy stalker! It’s sick. You wanna turn her into a straight girl when you know she only likes what we like---WOMEN! Get over it brotha! Take a pill and realize she ain’t changin’ for nobody man. Take your bible, your Hustler and your Phonix book and enjoy your time downstairs in that musty old basement.

Wut? Huh? I’m wrong? Your obsessed with me? Cuz’ once you go black ya never go back man. Once you go gay, you’ll never ever stray!

Wut? Huh? I'm wrong? You live in a trailer park with your big fat momma eating a casserole sitting on little metal lawn chairs? Yeh, that sounds accurate enough. Didn't I see you on COPS with your wifebeater shirt? Brotha got problems!

BRING IT!

Mark said...

Deb,
all followers of Christ are guilty. I am not sperating anyone or any sin. I am refuting what you don't call sin and holy before God. That kills body and soul and I must speak up. I have never said I feel that way, I have said and Gary as well, it is scripture based.

I have never said any racial remarks. The boy begs for it and I threw him a bone, a chiken bone that is! lol! but I will no longer respond to his nonesense, as I think this conversation, especially Gary's comments, will get lost.

~Deb said...

You know what's funny though? You and Loud Mouth would probably end up being good friends, if not for this weird racial banter.

Gary Baker said...

Deb,

You have let me have my say, and I appreciate it. I will answer your comments here, and let you finish (as in I will not add anything else to this thread unless you ask me a direct question, in which case I will answer ((though probably tomorrow because I am really worn out from the day))).

"Do you really believe that a committed relationship between two people who love one another is hurtful?"

You and I still have not come to terms with what a "committed" relationship is. The last time we discussed it, you expressed the opinion that you could get out if you found out later that the person was not "the one" or something along that line. To me, committed means there is no escape clause. If you fall out of love, you work back into love. The only way that you get out is in matters of survival, as in the other person is destructive to you, themselves, or the family. If you can opt out for any other reason, there is no commitment. Even then I do not call it good or right. It is necessary.

Having defined commitment, I believe that two people can be in a committed relationship that is sinful. I can imagine too people in an incestuous relationship that is completely committed, but it is not sinful. And it is not sinful because it causes harm. It causes harm because it is sinful. The criteria given by God as a rule uses righteousness as the criteria, not whether or not it is legal, harmful, etc. This is a completely separate issue from whether or not it can be forgiven. All sins can. But it makes it no less sinful.

"What is so contradictory with my answers?"

The contradiction is the shifting. You start by saying that a committed relationship between two adults should be fine. I mention incest, and you say that is wrong because of potential harm to offspring. Would you say that two other people, not related to each other, should not be allowed to marry if they had just as high or higher probability of birth defects? I am thinking probably not, but you can correct me. So it isn't really harm to offspring that you are objecting to. You brought up the idea of being harmful to flesh, but as we discussed there are conditions that can cause harm to the flesh that you would not consider wrong, so that isn't the real issue. To me, you are throwing out contradictory criteria on different situations.

"I try to defend myself and inform. "

That's true to a very great extent, and I respect you more than you know because of it. Still, the battle climate wears on you. When I see you write accusations, such as the reason people "bash" homosexuals is that they must have homosexual tendencies themselves, then you skate over a perilous line. If the only thing that you are going on is that they disagree with you, then it seems to me that you are giving in to anger. You are being untrue to yourself in that you are "bashing" with little personal knowledge about the individual and you are using a lifestyle that you consider as proper to be that insult. I am concerned that if you continue to fight this battle long term, you will lose a good deal of yourself and your peace with it. It's not one that you can win, and it is not one that needs to be fought. One scripture that comes to mind here is what does it profit a man (or person)to gain the world but lose their soul? If you fight here until you become as bitter and angry as the people you fight, will it be worth it? I am trying desperately to learn when to back off myself. Please consider what you can do and continue to be true to yourself.

I am, and shall always be, your friend. (If you're going to steal, even quotes, steal from the best.)

Mark said...

I love loudmouth, I just don't like him. I have many in that catogory, many. :) I am out... Hells Kitchen is on, I love that show!

kathi said...

Babe, you could never hide in a closet. You've got too much Light.

I love you.

I have, in fact, caught some Christian's opinions telling me divorce is a sin and I should have done everything (and continue to) to get Mark to come home (no need to go into all of that, you know what happened). I've received some hurtful words from his family (Christians) and from my "church" family...but yeah, being the 'twit' ( ;) ) that I am, I choose to believe that they're doing and saying these things because it's what they believe and they want to "help" me see the 'light'. I choose to believe their motives are pure. If I'm wrong and they are being hurtful on purpose, it's between them and God. I choose to love them. I also choose to hold close to God's Word, His love and His road that is meant only for me to walk.

I'm glad that your road crossed my road along our way because you mean a great deal to me. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I love you.

Brett said...

Mark. You are being plenty clear. Perhaps I’m not, so I’ll spell it out in short sentences for you. You are wrong in your interpretation of John 1. “The Word” does not signify the written scriptures in John 1. The Gospel of John is introducing JESUS, not the scriptures. You are taking ‘the Word’ to literally mean the Bible and you are wrong. ‘The Word’ in John 1 is Jesus, not the scriptures. So when the Gospel writer says “the Word was God” he means “Jesus was God.” He does not mean “the scriptures are God.” JESUS is God’s expression of Himself. The scriptures are something else apart from that. The scriptures are not God.

Write that down.

Mark said...

WOW! to Gary's last comment...

How much we can learn from not only his approach here, but his wisdom wrapped like a gift in God's word.

Jo said...

Deb,

Just arrived home from a short trip and so looked forward to reading you. I love your thought process and your abilty to leave an open forum for all of your readers.

That said; Thank God I'm unfixable!!! I'm comfortable with my realtionship with God and am thankful that he loves and accepts me "broken". Honestly I don't give a crapola of what others think!

Love this blog!

Flip Flop Goddess said...

sorry i been gone for a bit..I have missed u..

great post..


and i think u rock..

~Deb said...

Gary,

To me, a committed relationship means loyalty and monogamy. I have answered that question. There are certain situations where the relationship has to end – like you said, due to destruction to one’s integrity, self-esteem, and heart. Emotional and physical abuse can be traumatic if stayed within the relationship. God knows each motive of why each relationship ends.

As far as incest being sinful, it’s listed in Leviticus not to engage in sex with your sibling or mother, etc., however, in the Hassidim community, they marry within their own keep the inheritance within their family. I wrote about this in my book too. I stated in the book that even though these people are marrying within their family, I don’t judge them. Is it for me? No. But, due to birth defects and health issues, I think it’s dangerous. I don’t see God viewing them as evil though. The only reason why I think incest is wrong, is when it’s forced, like a father molesting his child- which there are plenty of cases out there where a family member will sexually abuse someone younger in their family. It wreaks havoc on them emotionally as well as physically, and the effects last throughout their lifetime, possibly affecting their future relationships.

”You are being untrue to yourself in that you are "bashing" with little personal knowledge about the individual and you are using a lifestyle that you consider as proper to be that insult. I am concerned that if you continue to fight this battle long term, you will lose a good deal of yourself and your peace with it.”

Aren’t they being untrue about themselves as well, by claiming knowledge about me? I haven’t lost myself in this battle, Gary, I have learned so much from it. In fact, I’ve learned so much about how some Christians tick, that it encouraged me to write my second book.

”It's not one that you can win, and it is not one that needs to be fought.”

I’m not trying to win here. I’m not fighting. I’m defending myself and informing others about my beliefs. It is worth it, only because there are so many people out there who were like myself in the past, where we suffered from guilt, shame and resentment, because we were criticized for being gay and loving God at the same time. I want to draw people closer to God…not away.

If I steal an armored car, I’ll be sure to call you and share the wealth! I promise! ;)

Kathi: There are many people (especially the old fashioned Italians I know) that believe divorce is the biggest sins, and that you should stick it out even if the husband is abusive and unfaithful. I don’t believe that. I think each circumstance is different and people should be able to see that. You give many people the benefit of the doubt, which is good, but some people’s motives are so obvious. Be careful – I love you too! I’m glad we crossed paths as well!

Jo: Thank you. I think it’s important that we all know that God loves us “as is”. It’s just like that department in Ikea, the “as is” department, where there are little nicks and dents. We’re flawed a bit, but we’re the most desired…people come to our rescue. Some stores call it “irregulars”. I find it an amusing term, but I can totally relate it to this situation. I love being “as is”.

Flip Flop: {{HUGS}}

~Deb said...

P.S. And you already know that I don't think Leviticus applies any longer...to Christians. But, what explains the reason why some Jewish people engage in incest? Interesting, huh? Do you think they're all going to hell? I don't. I think God loves them "as is".

Brett said...

Hi, Deb.

"But, what explains the reason why some Jewish people engage in incest? Interesting, huh? Do you think they're all going to hell?"

It is interesting. Remember Abraham, a major figure in the Bible, favored by God and chosen by God for great things, was married to his half-sister, Sarah.

~Deb said...

To keep the inheritance within their klan. I'll explain more in my post, as well as my personal experience with the community itself.

Mark said...

Brett, again God is absolute truth, that absolute truth is God's word, in text and in one's heart.

I am not confused yet.
2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Is the physical book God? no, I never ment to imply it was. Is the written text perfect, like God, yes. Is the text God's eternal truth / word? yes. That is why I say the word is God. Perhaps you are right, I should not phrase it that way. Unless you have touched God with your physical hand, you have the book, the word, the truth.

Jaded said...

This isn't a debate I plan to enter, just as I said to Christine. I will say a few general things, however.

First, Christine and I did not get along at all for several years. Over the past year or so, we've been able to engage in meaningful conversation, both on our blogs and through email. I don't always agree with her, nor does she always agree with me. We are now able to discuss rather than attack. I think it's important to share the Lord with one another, since we each have a unique and beautiful relationship with Him.

I don't always agree with you either Deb, nor would I expect to. We are our own people. Luckily, you and I have never had a contentious relationship, and we've never attacked one another. We've only shared our beliefs, feelings and the ways the Lord works in our lives. I think that's the way it should be, because that's how we can learn more about Him. When we can see how He works in someone else's life, we can grow even closer to Him.

I don't think it's productive at all for one Christian to attack another, nor to use the Bible against someone in an effor to "prove" that we're right. We can't possibly know what's in someone else's heart, nor how God flows through them. I think we, as Christians, can support one another and learn from one another. Even if we believe someone to have gotten it "wrong" I think we need to find ways to witness or minister without attacking each other. I have personally been guilty of this, especially with Christine. I really weighed heavily on my heart for a long time, though. I have done my best over the past months to approach everyone from a place of love, and not from a place of being "right."

I absolutely believe that you come from a place of love, Deb, but I also believe that Christine does as well. I think you're both very loving women who love Jesus, but you have very different life experiences. It is my sincere hope that we can all find some common ground so we can share and discuss, rather than attack one another. I mean that in a collective sense, not a specific one. I just mean that all of us, as Christians and non-Christians alike, can learn so much from each other without allowing anger and resentment to push us farther away from each other and from Him.
I can't imagine that He'd ever approve of that, no matter how good our intentions were at the start.

I appreciate and respect you, Deb. I enjoy learning about your faith and your strong relationship with Jesus. I don't doubt for a second that you love Him, and that He is the biggest priority in your life. I don't doubt those very things about Christine, either. I think that we, as strong Christian women, should learn to come together rather than drive each other away. Satan wins if we allow him to divide us like that.

Just my opinion.

~Deb said...

Thank you, Jaded. I appreciate what you said. Sometimes it feels bad when someone constantly tells you that your beliefs are wrong. But I guess since her beliefs, and my beliefs are so strong in itself, it's hard to agree to disagree. That's when conflict comes into play. She wants to "save my soul", but to me, and through my relationship with God, I believe that my soul has already been saved with the sacrifice of Jesus.

I can only share my beliefs.

Christinewjc said...

What about the souls that might, (most likely) miss salvation through Jesus Christ because of the skewed reprobate theology being promoted by the likes of people like Mel White?

Should he share his beliefs as well; even if in doing so, he negates what Jesus told us (via his prayer to the Father) when he stated in Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Can't you see what is happening Deb?

Especially egregious is White's desire to end any discussion of Scripture with his "followers".

Do you not see anything wrong with his ideology on this Deb?

More importantly, would Jesus approve?

Jon said...

Christine, why don't you get a life and stop obsessing over Deb. She's clearly stated that she didn't want to engage in conversation with you because of how hateful and intolerant you are. You are NOT right and the whole gig about Mel White is a crock of shit.

God says in the bible to not argue. Deb asked to not argue anymore, and she did this because it wasn't productive. Do you feel that this debate is constructive and good, when in fact, you're bringing her grief with your words and judgments?

You're an evil person Christine who doesn't know when to stop.

Get lost and just don't log onto her site you little imp!

~Deb said...

The best way I can answer Christine here, since she refuses to stop arguing based on someone’s ‘throwing in the proverbial towel’, is this:

"In its place you have clothed yourselves with a brand-new nature that is continually being renewed as you learn more and more about Christ, who created this new nature within you. In this new life, it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbaric, uncivilized, save, or free, Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us.
Since God chose you to be the holy people whom he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. You must make allowance for each other’s faults and forgive the person who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, as you must forgive others. And the most important piece of clothing you must wear is love. Love is what binds us all together in perfect harmony. And let the peace that comes from Christ rule in your hearts. For as members of one body you are all called to live in peace. And always be thankful. ~Colossians 3:10-15


Christine, are you displaying kindness, humility and gentleness as well as patience? Do you feel that you’re making allowances for each other’s faults and forgiving others for being different, or for those who offend you?

Please, end this debate. You’re not acting in love, you’re acting out in self-righteousness and you continually judge me based upon my relationship with my partner. You’re obviously not happy, and it’s evident that your eagerness to continue on arguing is just saddening really. Please let it go, and let God handle everything.

God bless.