Thursday, June 22, 2006

Christians Who Are Spiritually Dead

Standing back observing some recent discussions going on regarding ‘what’s right’ and ‘what’s wrong’ has really surprised me. People seriously think they are capable of judging one another. As a Christian, the main theme on this earth while we are here is to love one another and to love God with all your heart. That’s the biggest commandment that God gave to us which is written clearly in the bible.

I’m finding that most people are quoting Leviticus (which is the Old Testament) a lot. If you are a Christian, this no longer applies. The Jewish law still lives by this. The Old Testament is great to read discovering the history before Christ. Fine. But what does that say about the New Testament? Why did Jesus die for us?

I recently found someone quoted this scripture located in the Old Testament:

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Now if that person were to really delve deeper into the entire concept of sin, he/she would know that this no longer applies. This is the old law.

What about shellfish? I’m sure he/she enjoys a great shrimp cocktail once in a while and can be seen cracking open a lobster claw at a fancy restaurant from time to time. Who knows---I’m not judging.

Leviticus also states this:

As for marine animals, you may eat whatever has both fins and scales, whether taken from fresh water or salt water. You may not, however, eat marine animals that do not have both fins and scales. (shellfish) You are to detest them, and they will always be forbidden to you. You must never eat their meat or even touch their dead bodies. I repeat, any marine animal that does not have both fins and scales is strictly forbidden to you. ~Leviticus 11:9-12

Hmm…And that’s right near the passage where it talks about homosexuality.

Have you ever sat next to someone who is menstruating? How would you even know “Aunt Flo” was in town unless she snapped at you rudely?

Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. If you touch her during that time, you will be defiled until evening. Anything on which she lies or sits during that time will be defiled If you touch her bed, you must wash your clothes and bathe in water, and you will remain defiled until evening. The same applies if you touch an object on which she sits, whether it is her bedding or any piece of furniture. If a man has sexual intercourse with her during this time, her menstrual impurity will be transmitted to him. He will remain defiled for seven days, and any bed on which he lies will be defiled.
If the menstrual flow of blood continues for many days beyond the normal period, or if she discharges blood unrelated to her menstruation, the woman will be ceremonially unclean as long as the discharge continues. Anything on which she lies or sits during that time will be defiled, just as it would be during her normal menstrual period. If you touch her bed or anything on which she sits, you will be defiled. You will be required to wash your clothes and bathe in water, and you will remain defiled until evening.
When the woman’s menstrual discharge stops, she must count off a period of seven days. After that she will be ceremonially clean. On the eighth day, she must bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons and present them to the priest at the entrance of the Tabernacle. ~Leviticus 15:19-29

What about incest? This still happens within certain communities and the people who practice this live by the Old Testament only.

You can never have intercourse with a close relative, for I am the Lord. Do not violate your father by having sexual intercourse with your mother. She is your mother; you must never have intercourse with her. Do not have sexual intercourse with any of your father’s wives, for this would violate your father. Do not have sexual intercourse with your sister or half sister, whether she is your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was brought up in the same family or somewhere else.
Do not have sexual intercourse with your granddaughter, whether your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would violate you. Do not have sexual intercourse with the daughter of any of your father’s wives; she is your half sister. Do not have intercourse with your aunt, your father’s sister, because she is your father’s close relative. Do not have sexual intercourse with your aunt, your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative. And do not violate your uncle, your father’s brother, by having sexual intercourse with his wife; she also is your aunt. Do not have sexual intercourse with your daughter-in-law; she is your son’s wife. Do not have intercourse with your brother’s wife; this would violate your brother. Do not have sexual intercourse with both a woman and her daughter or marry both a woman and her granddaughter, whether or son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter. They are close relatives, and to do this would be a horrible wickedness. Do not marry a woman and her sister because they will be rivals. But if your wife dies, then it is all right to marry her sister.
Do not violate a woman by having sexual intercourse with her during her period of menstrual impurity. Do not defile yourself by having sexual intercourse with your neighbor’s wife. Do not give any of your children as a sacrifice to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord. ~Leviticus 18:6-21

Some Hasidim engage in inter-marriages. This is not uncommon. Hasidim interbreeding and intermarrying were to elaborate on the ‘clan’ or the ‘tribe’ of this community. The purpose of intermarrying was to preserve one’s inheritance of the family and for unity. There are communities today that still practice this. There’s more at risk here than just having your wealth shared with someone outside the family. Birth defects of babies are very common among intermarried couples. They share the same genetic material, which causes health problems and birth defects for the baby.

In my hometown, the Hasidim are the most religious people who practice their faith daily. They never work on Saturdays, they keep the Sabbath and watching televisions is unheard of and forbidden. Their clothing alone reveals to me how great their faith is in God. To wear a long black jacket in the midst of summer tells me that it’s more than just a fashion statement. This is called faith. Even though I do not agree with intermarrying due to birth defects and other health problems caused by this, I can understand their way of living. I can see that keeping their inheritance and unity within their family is sacred. So with that, I have respect for them and I do not judge them in any way. This is their way of living. So what’s my point you ask? My point is that the Old Testament is just that. All this being considered, even the Hebrews do not practice the Old Testament—even though that is their bible. Most of the entire book of Leviticus is based on the sin of intermarriages and incest.

Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. ~Leviticus 18:22

Okay, so now that we know that whoever eats shrimp, lobster, crabmeat, whoever loves someone of the same sex, whoever enjoys an elegant ostrich dinner, or sits on the couch of a woman that is menstruating, are all going straight to hell? Hmm… This is a lot to absorb, right? I can’t imagine our God saying that all mankind is going to hell. There are millions of people who eat shellfish. What about going to a female friend’s house? How can you know for sure if she is menstruating? Is she going to say to you-- “Oh no! Don’t sit on my couch! You’ll be defiled!” I’m only trying to make a point here, which is that some people do not understand the gay lifestyle, nor would they ever practice it, because it is not their way of living. The same goes with the Hasidim lifestyle, I don’t understand their way of living entirely, nor would I practice it, however I do not judge them. It is just not my way of living. Whatever lifestyle someone leads, let God be the only judge.

A message for those “Christians” who are quick to judge:

If we love our Christian brothers and sisters, it proves that we have passed from death to eternal life. But a person who has no love is still dead. Anyone who hates another Christian is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them. ~1 John 3:14-16

For someone to constantly point out your flaws and sins is someone who is spiritually dead; for they don’t even look at their own sins.

Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, “Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,” when you can’t see past the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye. ~Matthew 7:5

It has to drain the energy out of someone to take notice of every single flaw of another person—unless they are unhappy with their own situation in life. What sin are they committing that they feel the need to point out yours? Are they ‘without’ sin? Are they perfect? No one that walks this earth is perfect; not one single soul is pure. So why pick and choose which sin you hate and try to make others feel bad?

For those “Christians” who pointed out that homosexuality is just as bad as rape, incest and murder—remember this:

1. RAPE hurts
2. INCEST hurts
3. MURDER of course hurts

How has homosexuality between two consenting adults who love one another hurt you? Please explain in detail how this has affected your life. This question goes to those who consider homosexuality just as bad as those three above.

Enjoy your weekend! Sorry for the serious tone of this post, but I felt the need to address this issue once again, but in a different aspect and directed to certain people who have made very judgmental comments this past week.

78 comments:

kathi said...

Wow, finally, a post.

Anything not done in love is not of God. Period.

I love you sweet darlin'. Have since day one and I always will.

AWE said...

You were talking about inbreeding, I didn't know you were from the South.

Video X said...

homosexuality has never hurt me. in fact, the thought of two men or two women together has actually been quite the turn on for me lately. haha. so i support it 100%. ;)

i'm just kidding...well not really...but i'm not trying to make light of your post. i'm just not in a thinky mood...(i rarely am).

People seriously think they are capable of judging one another.

THAT IS JUST NUTS. Drives me nuts...actually it makes me physically nauseous. I hate judgers. And honestly, who even wants that responsibility! Their lives must just suck so bad they have to meddle with other people's lives.

There's a ton in this post! Nice job!

JD said...

you make some excellent points. love your blog, sorry i've been absent for a while.

Rev. Smokin Steve said...

Aw damn it... I'm defiled this week.

That just ruined my weekend.

Tense Teacher said...

Well done, Deb.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm...

You failed to point out that in the New Testament, there is nothing about not eating certain foods or being defiled by a menstruating woman.

In fact, I do believe that Peter said in Romans 14:21 that "all food is clean" as people were arguing over "clean and unclean" foods based on the "law" they were brought up on.

Certain parts of "the law" did become null and void,(i.e. restrictions on food and religious rituals to "become clean"). However, I am pretty sure that common sense dictates that murder is still wrong, lying is still wrong, committing adultery is still wrong, etc. etc. Homosexuality was still condemned. And the verse condemning it does not say you are in Christ, it says you ONCE lived this way.

Just because I don't agree with homosexuality and the fact that the bible doesn't condone it, doesn't mean I hate you. I wish the gay community would stop confusing a condemnation of homosexuality is equivalent to hatred and bigotry.

Struggling for the right to marry and have the same rights as hetrosexuals is not some great civil duty that must be done because you are experiencing some sort of justice.

The gay community is not being told they can't drink from certain fountains, go to an all gay school, or told to sit at the back of the bus because of their "sexual orientation". They also aren't being refused an education.

African Americans experienced bigotry and hatred for the color of their skin, THAT is true hatred. THAT is something your born with. The color of you skin is something you can't change.

The Old Testament also condmened sleeping with animals. I guess that was part of the old and now we're on with the new are we?

So if I fall in love with my dog and want to have sexual relations and marry my dog, shouldn't I have that right?

Don't scoff. I'm pretty sure that's what will come next.

There's a big difference between judging someone and condemning their sinful behavior.

Russ said...

We must remember that the old and new testaments were written in a different time for a different culture. Society has progressed in so many ways since then. I'm sure democracy would have been seen as an abomination against God back then too, but some of us have rethought that opinion in the last two hundred years.

The way I see it, morals all come down to one thing - respect. Certain morals are universal though all cultures, and they all involve having respect for your fellow man or woman. It has nothing to do with religion.

Pittchick said...

I just don't have the energy to engage in a heated debate about this.

Makes me feel a little bad about picking on the hoochie I saw at the bagel place this morning. Well, just a little, if you would have seen her outfit...

Madelene said...

Sometimes people need a little bit of a reminder about our similarities as opposed to our differences. As you said about our friends, the Hasidim community, I think they have great faith and consistantly show and live what they believe. You don't have to understand them, just don't judge them. Great post!

Big Mama said...

~deb, you know how I feel, I don't judge others because I don't want to be judged. Works for me.

Oh and has anyone homosexual ever affected me, ummm yeah, you have ~deb, with your great heart and open mind, you are like a ray of sunshine. Thank you for being you.

Grant said...

Growing up, I was always taught proper Christians believed in and followed the entire bible, although I did wonder why the preachers almost always preached from the New Testamanent and rarely the Old. You should judge with righteous judgment, you hypocrite. :p

~Dawn said...

Anon said "The gay community is not being told they can't drink from certain fountains, go to an all gay school, or told to sit at the back of the bus because of their "sexual orientation". They also aren't being refused an education."

I wish to give evidence that this is happening.

1. "gay community is not being told they can't drink from certain fountains" Without putting up the signs they are... in that Country clubs deny memberships, gays are denied the ability to adopt children who need a home,Gays have been denied access to their partners bedside in a hospital and so on.

2. ..."go to an all gay school" How many gay teenagers have to be beaten up or ridiculed to realize that in some areas they are not welcome in that school or much less town. They may not be forced to go to an all gay school, but they are instead forced to either go to school and face harassment or stay home.

3. ...."or told to sit at the back of the bus because of their 'sexual orientation'" They may not be pushed to the back of the bus, but they are treated as second class citizens by not being allowed laws that are given to married couples at the very least, common law marriages.

Being refused and education or laws that are given to others in similar situations is in fact bigotry.
Definition of a Bigot is the following: A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own. Prejudice carried to the extreme of overt hatred, often carried to the point of violence.

I also find it interesting that when blacks and whites wanted to marry, it was the conclusion of many religious folk that the next step was marrying your pet or multiple people would be the next step. Since there are laws against polygamy and so far a persons mindset is questioned if they want to marry an animal, I would venture to guess that the law and phychosis of the indivual will continue to be questioned.

Based on a non bibilical look at your feelings, Anon I would suggest that you reconsider Gays of today are not treated like blacks of yesterday and still today.

Mike said...

You're gonna get Dani all riled up again pumpkin!

*snickers*

Kristi Reimer said...

I've been reading your blog for quite sometime and wanted to say thank you for being so open and full of love. Your message is quite clear that it comes from a greater source. I even witnessed the debates between you and other people on here and it amazes me how some *so called Christians* claim to be sending a message of love when they are sending a message of hate.

God is not about hate. Any person in their right mind knows that, or should I say in their Christian minds?

I just finished your book and want to say THANK YOU!

Love & Peace

Leesa said...

Okay, ~deb, you made the following statement:

People seriously think they are capable of judging one another.

From my viewpoint and experiences, I can attest to the fact that people are capable of judging others, and do so all of the time. They judge, but it doesn't make their judgments valid.

I figure, I will work on me and my hubbie, as far as spiritual growth goes. And I never eat shrimp cocktails. But I love my shrimp boiled, broiled, barbequed, and swimming in garlic butter.

I am guessing that Leviticus did not own stock in a seafood restaurant.

Miranda said...

This was what was one of the comments in Dani's post...I believe from a randydandy:

"I guess I just think that people are missing the point of Christianity. It is not to hate others, to point out others flaws, to tell others that they are going to hell... to say how your living your life is wrong and my way is right! The bible says that Faith is great, but faith without LOVE, is dead. Christianity is about bringing people together, loving one another, accepting, caring for and loving people even IF they are the prostitutes, the homosexuals or the murderers. God loves them, he loves gay people ... and it hurts him to see others pushing them further away from the truth."

Although I think its just sick how they classify gays right up there with pedofiles, prostitutes, and murders. They all seem to forget that some pedofiles that are pasters, ministers...preying on little boys and girls, Prostitutes come from both sides, and well murder thats a whole different subject.

I myself was never brought up religiously, I've been to church no more than 10 times in my life. But I believe there is a God out there, and he knows what is in your heart and soul. I've also learned good from bad. I know even my parents don't agree with homosexuality. But you CANT HELP WHO YOUR HEART FALLS IN LOVE WITH.

From what I've seen so far with all this squabbling about 'christian' beliefs, is its ok to do something wrong....if you 'repent'. You'll be saved. Everything from 'same sex', 'orgies', 'pastors commiting adultry'its all good, just say you'll repent and you'll be fine. Of course some slip and do it again, its a viscious cycle.

Oi, this is going no where. I just wanted to say, Im with you Deb. You're not hurting anyone, your faithful, and a great person.

Good luck on this ongoing, now getting redundant, mission. I just pray to God that one or all of Dani's kids dont come home and tell her that they are gay, it doesn't matter the upbringing, it happens. I just hope she has the sense to love them no matter what. As a parent, you have to love your child unconditionally.

Im going to leave you with these lyrics that I think people should think about:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


Just saying...wouldnt the world be a better place? lol...have a good weekend.

Miranda said...

I read this in Daily Snark's (http://notwealthy.blogspot.com/) blog:

MORE WORDS TO LIVE BY:
"I try to see people for their heart and soul, not what their 'front' is. As I have said many times, MANY MANY times... I don't care about where you came from, what religion you have, if you have money, if you are GLBT, if you have a disability, what color you are, what your political views are. I really REALLY don't care! What I care about is how you treat me and others."

NWJR said...

Good post.

steff81 said...

I'm confused? Are you saying that the Old Testament is no longer true or right? Are you implying that what God said in the Old Testament has changed? I believe that God is never changing and that His word is always right and true.

It's interesting to see how people manipulate the Bible to suit his or her needs and lifestyle. I see you failed to leave out the NEW Testament verses that reflect God's thoughts on homosexuality.

You should bring all the facts to the table before you start claiming that everything past Malachi is only about loving and being loved. It's not.

Anonymous said...

Deb,

I can't get over how people consider rape, incest and murder the same as loving another person.

I've always wondered about the cultures of the hasidm community where we live. Very interesting.

Steff81, the old testament is true, but true Christian believers no longer go by the old law. Why don't you read up on your facts and see where it says that the law no longer applies to the gentiles.


(dl)

Dani said...

B-O-R-I-N-G!

Same ol' garbage. I guess God received counseling in-between the OT and NT - now He is much more tolerant and in touch with His feminine side.

Steff81 - Deb ignores what the New Testament says about homosexuality because according to her, she's not being sexually immoral since she "loves" her partner.

Need a new argument, Deb - you're running outta excuses.

Dani said...

Anon said...- "but true Christian believers no longer go by the old law."

So I guess murder, incest, lying stealing, kidnapping, rape, bestiality, and adultery ALL must be okay now since those were the old laws.

Yeah - makes sense to me!

Obviously it is evil and morally wrong to eat shellfish or touch a woman on "the rag" - thanks for clearing this up, Deb.

And remember - "Do Not Judge"

Mike said...

What a relief to see that Dani is still among us. I was afraid the voice of the delusional was dead or that she'd run off with her cultlike preacher ala Jim Jones style.

Here's a tip for ya Dani:

Don't drink the koolaid he offers ya.

normiekins said...

WE LOVE YOU DEB!!!!!!!!! BIG HUGS AND KISSES....OOPS THAT'LL PROBABLY GET ME IN TROUBLE.....;)

I support you 1000%!!!!!!!!!!

Okay i did laugh at the shrimp, crabmeat and lobster....the thought of abomination in the sea !!!!!!!! Hey what happens then to charley the tuna?....damn fins and scales......!

Miranda said...

((((GROUP HUG)))))....omg...I hope that was ok.

Anonymous said...

I would like to add since that was my post a few anonymous people ago...I think it's wrong to treat the gay community like they are less than human. They will never be won to Christ that way...and I think Dani is a little harsh, although I agree with her on the part that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. However, you can feel pure hatred dripping from her words and I think that is WRONG.

However, when I was comparing the African Amercian civil rights issue with homosexuality, I was TRYING to make the point that there is a big difference between being refused rights based on the COLOR of you skin (which is not classified a sin in the Bible) and being refused rights because of a LIFESTYLE choice (which IS classified a sin in the Bible).

Do gays and lesbians deserve to be beat up, called hateful names, denied access to certain "clubs" etc, etc.? NO. No they don't. Are they on the same "moral" plain as child molestors, rapists, and the like? NO. Those unlawful, defile human beings (molestors, rapists) deserve to be castrated and locked up for the rest of their lives. Although I know God still loves them and they have the same opportunity to receive Christ and be forgiven as we all do--as long as they CHANGE their lifestyle and don't CONTINUE sinning in that way. Didn't Jesus tell Mary Magdalene, "GO AND SIN NO MORE?"

Would you not seriously doubt the salvation of a person claiming to be a Christian who rapes and molests children/women and the like? If you don't, then there's something wrong with your ability to see right from wrong.

I do believe that America was originally built upon the foundations of Christianity when prayer in school and the reading of the scriptures was allowed. No wonder so many people are so bloody confused, no one actually READS the Bible anymore--except maybe to find verses to back up the way they live.

And if one more person says, "I don't judge people..." blah blah blah...WHAT FREAKIN' EVER. AHAHAHAHA. You are judging those people that don't have the same views as you as bigots and haters. So...ummm...yah, you judge. We all do. Get off your high and mighty horse. This last paragraph may have sounded harsh, but that's probably because it was. WE ALL JUDGE PEOPLE...EVERYDAY.

~Deb said...

Steff: What I’m trying to say is that we no longer consider eating shellfish a sin, nor do we consider sitting on a couch of a woman who is menstruating a sin.

In the New Testament it says:

So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ—and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law.” ~Galatians 2:16

Then you have the Ten Commandments:

• You shall have no other Gods.
• You shall not worship (or use in worship) images of anything in heaven or on earth.
• You shall not misuse God's name.
• Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
• Honor your father and your mother.
• You shall not kill.
• You shall not commit adultery.
• You shall not steal.
• You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
• You shall not covet (i.e. envy, particularly with an eye to taking) your neighbor's house, wife, or anything else.


Promiscuity is stated a sin—regardless. Back in biblical times when they were running wild having huge orgies and getting bored of the opposite sex—they went into homosexuality. This was in a promiscuous form.

What I’m trying to relay is that if your heart leans towards someone of the same gender and you have love for someone, how can that be wrong?

Okay—so next they’ll say why can’t we marry our dogs or cats. Let’s be real here. I totally understand why you believe that ‘homosexuality’ is a sin. I do. For me? I don’t believe that homosexuality was considered a union between two of the same genders back in the bible. I seriously believe with all my heart that it’s quite different when two people are in a monogamous relationship.

It clearly states in Paul’s letters that the old law doesn’t apply to Christians living by the New Testament. I do believe much of what the Old Testament says, because it’s all about Christianity’s history. I don’t chuck it aside and say, “Blah, that’s not true.” But when Jesus came to this earth, He saved us and the old laws were set aside.

Religious debates will go on forever. No one will agree when they have complete faith in what they stand for and what they believe. So I will leave it at that because God tells me what is right; my relationship with God is personal. I know He loves me and He loves you. For each person is so unique and has their own crosses to bear. Who can say they’re without sin? My other sins weigh out any impure thoughts I have! Believe me, I’m no stranger to gossip or a little white lie here and there. Ack--just take a look at my alcohol consumption alone! But then again, didn't Jesus make water into wine? What a man! ;)

There are many other sins to take into consideration.

How can all of us be perfect?

That’s why Jesus came to this earth. (To my Christian friends) To save us from them. A remorseful heart is good. But the argument of loving someone of the same gender is quite debatable. Perversion and loving someone are two separate things.

Thanks for your input. I do appreciate EVERYONE’S comments even if they are different from mine. I truly feel in my heart that if your belief works for you—then live by it. God knows our hearts.

Be well...!

Miranda said...

"God knows our hearts."

~Amen~

Mike said...

Where's the beer...and the shrimp cocktail?

None333333 said...

Deb,

You consistently bring up the 'shellfish' argument even though people have tried to address the finer points of the Old Testament law and how it relates to us today. Your arguments sound more New Age than Biblical (I know cause I was into New Age). Fine w/me if that's what you're into but if you are going to argue your point using the Bible as support you seriously need to do more in depth study of the scriptures. Most of your blog readers aren't Christians and/or they love you to death so you're going to get a 'rah rah' response no matter what you say. But if you run up against someone who is grounded in theology and the bible, your arguments are going to fall flat.

I'm not telling you to change your beliefs but if you want to engage in serious debate it's best to know your stuff. I'm seriously trying to find out what gay theologians are saying vs. conservative theologians because I think it's an issue that merits careful study and not just personal interpretations based on one's prejudices for or against.

Anonymous said...

myquestioningmind - yes she keeps bringing that up. Yet the real question was never answered:

1. RAPE hurts
2. INCEST hurts
3. MURDER of course hurts

How has homosexuality between two consenting adults who love one another hurt you? Please explain in detail how this has affected your life. This question goes to those who consider homosexuality just as bad as those three above.

The Stevo in H-Town said...

Maybe it's jus' me...but answerin' a question posed by anybody named "anonymous" might have a down-side...

Miranda said...

OMG....yeah I know Im back, but I've been looking for an answer.

Dani said: So I guess murder, incest, lying stealing, kidnapping, rape, bestiality, and adultery ALL must be okay now since those were the old laws.

Anon said:
1. RAPE hurts
2. INCEST hurts
3. MURDER of course hurts

How has homosexuality between two consenting adults who love one another hurt you? Please explain in detail how this has affected your life. This question goes to those who consider homosexuality just as bad as those three above.

Since I cant figure out how to cap on these comments. WHY ARE THEY EVEN COMPARING RAPE, MURDER, INCEST WITH 2 CONSENTING ADULTS?

Taylor said...

You people really confuse I child! I am not sure of a lot of things now. Deb and Dani both have pretty good points and it's all so mind boggeling.
I will not, even though as confusing as it may be,change my position on homosexuality though because I don't believe God will burn me for loving. Now, if I go around hating everyone of the same sex or whatever I think that would make him sad. Love is better than hate right? Even if it is directed to the wrong gender (supposing Dani is right.) To answer my own question I do believe love is better than hate. God chooses love! God loves love! Hate makes him sad so let's stop the fighting and be... I don't know. More loving. Now you're thinking, "Taylor, you're one to talk, you snapped at Dani all those times before!!!" Well, ya I am guilty but I decided that it's getting me no where.
Once again I would like to say that both women make very good points... wether they are in the kindest terms or not and I respect them both. I look up to you Deb and no, I cannot say I look up to Dani the same but I do believe she is strong in fighting for her beliefs. Just try fighting for them a little more politely! Sarcasim is so unwanted.

i wish you all a happy summer and hope to see response to my comment. i think i speak wisely for my age.

LOVE
~ME

Anonymous said...

No matter what the bible says, everybody will interpret it differently. No theologian or bible expert can tell someone else what is right and what is wrong. Only God can speak to you. Why do you think there are holy wars?

(dl)

None333333 said...

Anonymous,

True but a Christian owes it to him or herself to really study the Bible in depth and not just gloss over stuff. Some people were pressuring me about certain beliefs and the best advice someone gave me was to study the Bible and pray about it. So I said, if this is for me, I want God to tell me. And eventually I got a word from God.

So I don't think it's appropriate to try to argue someone into changing their beliefs but you can certainly challenge someone and point things out.

You asked, how does a same sex relationship hurt two people. My answer would be based on a scripture:

1 Corinthians 6:

But our bodies were not made for sexual immorality [greek Porneia - fornication]. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies. 14 And God will raise our bodies from the dead by his marvelous power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead. 15 Don't you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which belongs to Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! 16 And don't you know that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, "The two are united into one."* 17 But the person who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
18 Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. 19 Or don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, 20 for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.


Now if you don't belief that a gay relationship falls under the category of 'porneia' then that wouldn't apply. But if you do believe it does, then what Paul is saying is that you are harming your own body. The scripture infers that there is some sort of spiritual fusion that occurs when 2 people have sex and that's why it has spiritual ramifications.

Mike said...

So now when I hear "Oh God" it's not just simply sex...it's a spiritual experience as well.
Very nice!

Anonymous said...

myquestioningmind, you still haven't pointed out where it says if a person loves another of the same gender, that it's wrong. There was not one mention of homosexuality in your scripture that you threw out to us.

Deb is not a prostitute, nor should she be compared to one. She has been with the same person for a long time. How is this selling her body? You make absolutely no sense at all. I think you need to re-read the bible and not just gloss over it yourself.

She is not forinicating with just anyone. She is with her partner. If she could have married her partner, then she would have already.

Your point was not valid. Sorry. You proved nothing.

(dl)

Anonymous said...

One more thing, personally that made me sick to think that anyone would consider prostitution the same as homosexuality.

Big difference. You're ignorant for even putting that out there.

We're talking about monogomy between two people who love one another.

Get a clue.

(Sorry Deb, this upsets me that there are such ignorant minded people spewing scriptures that they don't even know.)

(dl)

Mike said...

Many people can read a bible, quote a bible...but few seem to understand the bible.

Spewing hate in the name of religion is sickening.

Dani said...

Miranda - You asked: How has homosexuality between two consenting adults who love one another hurt you?

I wouldn’t care so much about homosexuals if they weren’t trying to force feed their unholy agenda to the public through every available resource (media, television, government school, ect.) But I really have a problem when homosexuals claim to be “Christians” because they are perverting the TRUE meaning of LOVE.

When two people who claim to be followers of Christ are openly mocking God by living in a relationship which is indisputably forbidden – it not only hurts my life and the particularly the lives of those involved, but it attempts to destroy the Body of Christ as a whole. A little leaven leavens the whole lump, and once you are infected with a cancerous virus like homosexuality in the Body, it will begin to spread like wildfire. Just take a look at the modern day church in America – “Christians” are hardly recognizable from the loose, left-wing, liberal humanists out in society.

I am not the one who classifies murder, incest, lying, stealing, kidnapping, rape, bestiality, prostitution, and adultery all in the same category as homosexuality -- GOD IS!!!

ALL are considered abominations in God's eyes, not just some of them - and God is the Ultimate Judge, remember?

Personally, I don’t think Deb is as wicked as a rapists or murderer, obviously. She is sweet, caring, outgoing and kind, but all those "good" things are not good enough in God’s eyes. God sees our hearts and hates all who do iniquity. There is forgivness for our sins through Jesus Christ, but only if we REPENT! That's the key to salvation!

For someone who claims to be a "Christian" and has such great knowledge of the Bible, Deb should have a clear understanding in her convictions of God’s original design (man & woman) and that any sexual relations outside marriage are sinful and wrong, whether you “love” each other or not.

I have asked these following questions on my blog several times – (No Deb I’m not going to cut & paste, just repeat myself again.) We already established that in your mind it is okay for two men or two women to be together as long as they "love" each other and are consenting adults, correct? (Well, I guess you don't even need love these days.)

So, now if the only prerequisite to having sexual relations with someone is that you must be two consenting adults - Is it okay for a grown brother and sister to have sex together? What about a mother and her adult son? They "love" each other and they are two consenting adults, so what's the big deal? Is it okay for a married man to have a consenting affair with his secretary? Why limit it to two people? What if three people want to have sex together, or five or ten? Where is the limit for consenting adults?

==========

This is the tragedy I see going on here:

Taylor, a young 14 yr-old “bi-sexual” girl, who is undoubtedly confused and desperately seeking approval from any avenue in life. Here she comes across Deb, a “Neurotic Christian Lesbian” who preaches a gospel of “love” and “tolerance” but distorts the Truth in God’s Word to fit with her personal “feelings” as she justifies her perversion. Now Taylor is looking up to “Christian” Deb as a good example and inspiration wanting to follow in her footsteps as a lesbian.

Absolute Tragedy!

Taylor - I will be praying for you that you do not enter down that road of eternal damnation. Please open your eyes little one and consider the consequences of your choices. I am not being hateful. I love you enough to tell you the truth. People call the Truth hate because people hate the Truth.

God is Love – this is true! But God is also Righteous, Holy and Just, and He will NOT turn a blind eye to sin! God will save those who repent, but He will pour down His wrath on the wicked because He hates sin! God does not merely send sins to hell, He sends people to hell.

Mike said...

Dani...all of your rhetoric does is reek of homophobia. You just simply pick and choose your sins to condemn. That's where you ultimately fail to persuade anyone with half a brain in any of your arguments. You are simply a hypocrite who falsely thinks of themself as a christian.

You simply condemn, over and over and over the same thing without condemning anything your sicko preacher does...and has done.

By your interpretation of the bible and sinning, he sins daily as an adulterer, among other things as well.

He preaches hate and you buy into it.

Like I said earlier...don't drink any koolaid he may some day pass out. He may want to pass Jim Jones fame.

None333333 said...

Anonymous,

I didn't quote that scripture to offend anyone. The scripture refers to 'porneia', which is widely interpreted as 'fornication'. Fornication can include sex between two people who love each other and aren't married, as well as more promiscuous activities.

The really interesting thing about this scripture (apart from arguing about what = porneia) is that there is a spiritual fusion that occurs when 2 people have sex. I think that's a fascinating concept.

So if you sleep with someone who's been really promiscuous (the example used in the scripture was a prostitute) then they're fused with all those previous partners and you somehow open yourself up spiritually to all that bad energy. If you are a spirit-filled believer then you are part of a spiritual body - the body of Christ, so to then have sex, with, say a prostitute, would be channeling all that bad energy into your body which is supposed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Anonymous said...

I have come to the conclusion that you're all nuts.

Russ said...

I wish people would get it out of their heads that homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice." If it is, then that means heterosexuality is a lifestyle choice too. Did all the straight commenters CHOOSE to be straight? My guess is they didn't. My guess is they just ARE straight. Well, it's the same for Deb any anyone else who isn't straight. They just ARE, there's no choice involved. And how is it a lifestyle? Is heterosexuality a lifestyle?

And, for the record, I'm straight myself.

joey♥ said...

hey deb! sorry ive been mia recently. im moving into a new apt. and am busy busy. i hope your vacation went well. i completely agree with you on this post. you are so well-versed and clear with your words/opinions.

Anne said...

Here's another argument that gets me: "I love the homosexual, but I hate the homosexual behavior" i.e. - sex before marriage. They're quick to point out sex before marriage for straights is also sin. (BTW - these folks also don't want gays to have marriage rights.) GREAT! Hetersexuals always have the hope of marriage if they choose to wait; but, hello! Gays can't marry - so what are they to do? Be celibate? Does anyone else see the foolishness of this argument?

CP said...

I was beaten. Three times a week or more. Beaten by a man. A "christian" man. A man who revered God *supposedly*. The love between us hurt. It hurt me physically and emotionally. It hurt me in every way a woman can experience pain.

Years earlier, many years earlier, I was in a relationship with a woman. She was loyal. Faithful. Loving. Compassionate. Understanding. A beautiful soul who loved God, loved me and loved life. Our love never hurt.

I have compared every single person I have ever had a relationship with to her. I finally met my soulmate. Yes, in the form of a man. But, that is not what made him my soulmate. What made him my soulmate is that he loves me. He cherishes me. He finds beauty in everyday.

And, our love never hurts.

Love is not between a man and a woman. Love is between two human beings who care enough to take the time to learn together, grow together and respect each others ideals. That is love.

Love knows no religion.
Love knows no gender.
Love knows no color.

And I will take my Jewish, lobster eating ass and be true to myself and the love in my heart before I will ever abide by the hatred of others who hide behind the lie known as "The Truth".

Now excuse me while I take my menstruating Jew self and go violate my also Jew husband in fifty different ways.

He doesn't mind being "unclean".

I'll take my bath and bring my doves to temple tomorrow.

CP.

CP said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
CP said...

Dani said:

"I wouldn’t care so much about homosexuals if they weren’t trying to force feed their unholy agenda to the public through every available resource (media, television, government school, ect.)"


Um, ring ring?

Hello?

Hi, is Dani there?

No. Who's this?

This is The Pot.

OH, hey Pot! I'm Kettle! How are you?

Oh, great Kettle. I was just calling to say "you're black". Take care now!

Yeah! You too! Good talkin' with you.

HYPOCRITE.

*giggle*

kattbanjo said...

Dani- I was wondering, do you honestly beleive that your hate-filled, narrow-minded ranting leads people to Christ??? It seems to me you do more for Satan's cause by making us Christians look like zealots. There has been much hatred and pain caused by 'Christians' like you throughout history. It's a shame you weren't alive during the inquisition. It would have been right up your alley.
You make me embarrassed to be Christian.

mal said...

right on! I am saddened by how often one fanatics prejudices are cloaked in the mantle of religion and used to justify harming others, in violation of the basic tenents of that faith.

"Man is not rational, Man is rationalizing"

mal said...

BTW, my new blog address is http://malsmumblings.blogspot.com

Big Mama said...

CP, I love you!!! LOL!!!

60 and counting said...

I honestly thought that a Christian was somebody who believed in Christ.
A Non Christian was somebody that believed in some other religion such as Islam, Buddhism,Judeaism,Hindu and about a million others.
Your sexual preference, colour, hair type or the fact you might be left handed does not matter one iota. If you believe in Christ. You are a Christian.
Look at the words. Christ, Christian.
If you were a follower of paper cups, you would be a paper cupian.

:)

~Dawn said...

Matthew 7:15-17
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

It seems the words (fruit) that comes from Deb's mouth are more encouraging and seem to produce more fruit (followers) and less strife. I would suggest Taylor takes into consideration the full context of the verse quoted to her, by Dani, on her blog.

Taylor said...

Dani, I thank you for you're kindness... but I disagree that God goes around pouring his wickeness on people. It reminds me of this part in Fantasia (this may be irrelevant) when Zues is pictured throwing thunderbolts at humans, trying to hit them. It's just unrealisitc.
I don't seek a approval from anyone except my family and friends and God who might I add I am trying to get closer too... guess I need to sit down with that bible. Well, that's what summer is for :)
I do look up to Deb and that's not going to change. I think she's a super nice woman and I enjoy her writings.
I don't think I'm a tragedy... I am a person. A very resonable person (even though dramatic). Please don't call me a tragedy. That just hurts my feelings.


NICENESS IS KEY! can we please try and be a little more polite about explaining our opinions...

HAPPY DAY!!!
~taylor

~Deb said...

Taylor, you know, I was the same way—just like you. I knew since I was a baby that I was attracted to the same gender. I knew something was different. And because of your age, it only proves that it’s genetics and “this is how God made you”. Do not feel guilty about it and NEVER ONCE think for a minute that God doesn’t love you---because He does—more than ANYTHING OR ANYONE else in this world. God’s love is greater than any obstacle or trial on this earth. What makes people think He can’t love someone who loves someone of the same sex? It’s way different from someone who is promiscuous and ruining their own bodies.

Okay—so they say premarital sex is bad. Well if we were allowed to get married (us gay and lesbians) then it would be different for some of us… The truth is, we don’t have that option right now in most states.

Be true to yourself. Don’t repress your feelings Taylor, because if you do, you’ll make one man very unhappy because he’ll sense you’re not in love with him. He’ll sense that it’s all for what someone dictated to you.

Be true…to you!

Taylor said...

Deb,

Great to finally here from you. I am strong with my feelings and they aren't changing. I'm just trying to be a bit more open-minded about what people are saying. Less filtering and more thinking I guess you might say.
I agree.. and oh! just remembered something (only verse I can remember) "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE GAVE HIS ONE AND ONLY SON." Pretty cool huh? It doesn't say that God so loved the world except for that little group of individuals interested in the same sex. GOD LOVES. God doesn't hate. Hate makes him sad. :( Let's all be loving so we came make him happy!!!


HAVE A HAPPY (and lovely) DAY!!!

~Taylor

p.s. How's everyone's summer going?

~Deb said...

Hiya Taylor,

The most important thing is that you have such an opened minded spirit which is crucial in deciding what you want to do with your future and your life. It’s all up to you. Sometimes people bring across their message in a harsh tone, and sometimes it meant with a loving conviction, but in most cases, it’s done with a remorseful and resentful heart. I know you have the wisdom and discernment to know what the ‘truth’ is. What you believe and what God tells “you” is to be true.

Don’t live a lie. Just be you. Can’t ask more than that. Thank you for responding. I appreciate all your feedback!

With love,
Deb

~Dawn said...

I thought the following post from straight, not narrow was good, I will post below the major part.


The Warning Signs of Toxic Religion


1. A religious spirit views God as a cold, harsh, distant taskmaster rather than an approachable, loving Father. When we base our relationship with God on our ability to perform spiritual duties, we deny the power of grace. God does not love us because we pray, read our Bibles, attend church or witness, yet millions of Christians think God is mad if they don’t perform these and other duties perfectly. As a result they struggle to find true intimacy with Jesus.

2. A religious spirit places emphasis on doing outward things to show others that God accepts him. We deceive ourselves into believing that we can win God’s approval through a religious dress code, certain spiritual disciplines, particular music styles or even doctrinal positions.

3. A religious spirit develops traditions and formulas to accomplish spiritual goals. We trust in our liturgies, denominational policies or man-made programs to obtain results that only God alone can give.

4. A religious spirit becomes joyless, cynical and hypercritical. This can turn a home or a church completely sour. Then, whenever genuine joy and love are expressed, this becomes a threat to those who have lost the simplicity of true faith.

5. A religious spirit becomes prideful and isolated, thinking that his righteousness is special and that he cannot associate with other believers who have different standards. Churches that allow these attitudes become elitist—and dangerously vulnerable to deception or cult-like practices.

6. A religious spirit develops a harsh, judgmental attitude toward sinners, yet those who ingest this poison typically struggle with sinful habits that they cannot admit to anyone else. Religious people rarely interact with nonbelievers because they don’t want their own superior morals to be tainted by them.

7. A religious spirit rejects progressive revelation and refuses to embrace change. This is why many churches become irrelevant to society. They become so focused on what God did 50 years ago that they become stuck in a time warp—and cannot move forward when the Holy Spirit begins to speak in new ways. When religious groups refuse to shift with God’s new directives, they become “old wineskins” and God must find more flexible vessels that are willing to implement His changes.

8. A religious spirit persecutes those who disagree with his self-righteous views and becomes angry whenever the message of grace threatens to undermine his religiosity. An angry religious person will use gossip and slander to assassinate other peoples’ character and may even use violence to prove his point. Jesus, in fact, warned His disciples: “There will even come a time when anyone who kills you will think he’s doing God a favor” (John 16:2, The Message).

Taylor said...

You're welcome Deb, but thank YOU!



Have a happy day!!! :)

Miranda said...

Ok sheesh, this topic is sooo over. Here's where I stand. I am in love with the most wonderful woman, now for the last 4 years. We've had our ups, and downs. But one things for sure I know in my heart, as does God. We are good people, we dont hurt anyone. In the end He will have the final say.

Deb- I love you for your beliefs, your faith in the world, you go girl, your great, I wish you and your girlfriend the best in the world.

Dani- Obviously you cant change the world, people will do as people do, in the end GOD LOVES ALL HIS CHILDREN. My g/f was molested by 2 uncles, was married to an abusive man. SHe has now found peace, yes, with a woman. I wish you luck with your 3 girls, and hope they find their happiness in any form that makes them happy. As I've said before, Im not a religious person, but I know right from wrong. And Im pretty sure spewing hate all over the place isnt right.

Taylor - follow your heart,the heart knows no gender. Beware of of all the homophobics in the world, its tough out there. You'll never be able to please everyone, but remember as long as you are a good person you will be ok.

On another note, I just watched a movie called "Imagine me and you" a cute little romantic comedy about a woman who falls inlove ...with a woman. AND NO ITS NOT PORN.

Have a great weekend Deb.

Sometimes Saintly Nick said...

I don’t think there is anything I can add to this post, Deb. You made excellent points—and made them well!

Enemy of the Republic said...

Good for you. I have been trying to prove this argument for ages--Leviticus is about as contemporary for our society as cave drawings. Well done.

None333333 said...

Dawn,

I agree with your post on spiritual legalism except for #7. Calling out sin is not 'legalism' perse but it can be done in a legalistic fashion.

If 'progressive revelation' means changing what the Bible says about sin then I would rather stay old fashioned an 'irrelevant'.

The fact is that God wants to deliver homosexuals from their same sex desires. Now get your rocks out and start stoning.

Enemy of the Republic said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Enemy of the Republic said...

Will you actually read all these comments? I just checked out Dani's blog. I want to think about my response, although I know I will change nothing. Like you, I am a Christian, but I feel that certain truths about our faith are beyond our human grasp. Yet when I read a blog such as Dani's, I am deeply saddened because it points to prejudice, hate (these kinds of Christians can spare me the love talk) and celebrating difference. What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing! We are all brothers and sisters, not only in Christ but in the human condition. God judges the heart which is why I don't make judgements on other religions. He knows what is right. We human beings just think we do.

Okay. Time for bed. Chin up, Deb.

Miranda said...

Amen enemy of the republic.

Anonymous said...

That is the whole point. What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality? No one can answer that. Excellent point you made!

(dl)

None333333 said...

Enemy of the Republic

What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing! We are all brothers and sisters, not only in Christ but in the human condition.


Jesus did not address homosexuality, bestiality, incest, or fornication either. Jesus didn't need to address every type of sexual sin because it was already spelled out in the law. This has been pointed out time and time again.

God can and will deliver a person of same sex attractions.

Taylor said...

Thank you Miranda :)
*yawn* I think I'm still tired. I think I'm gonna go read my book. Either: Wicked or Boston Jane

Buttug McOysty said...

two cents because i'm randomly blog surfing:

First off, I'm Christian, and by extension, definitly straight.

We believe in a God who loves people, loves his creation, yet hates sin. Because he is a HOLY God, simple as that, wouldn't be HOLY if there were sin around Him.

Now I believe the original point of the post was about judging one another.

Let me ask this, if you cannot judge another human being, why is it that you can say "rapists" are bad, or "murderers" are bad?

Ultimately, God has set the moral standards. Picking and choosing certain rules from that standard to follow does not mean you are following it.

To believe parts of it, is pretty much not-believing at all.

But to see people misled by a supposed "lesbian Christian" does irk me a bit.

It's true, the Christian church today is filled with hypocrites. I do not deny that.

For sure there are parts of my life I need to work on, and I am confident in saying I will never be perfect.

It's up to the individuals to dig through that Bible, which is the infallable Living Word of God, to figure how to live.

This has been all over the place, I do not know how to formulate an argument and after reading through too many comments all at once, I appologize for being all over the place.

Darwin's Dagger said...

Bunch of silly monkeys. Can any of you know the mind of God?

Cocaine Jesus said...

forgive my barging into what is patently a very christian site and worse with the name my mother (a devout salvationist) dislikes. so sorry but cocaine jesus is my sobriquet and jesus is not the real name of the messiah anyway (but that is just a cheap tangent - sorry again).
it is so good to see a lesbian christian standing up and putting forward, as far as i am concerned, a noteworthy reappraisal of what constitutes a decent a good human being. i cannot beleive that the messiah would have said anything cruel or unkind about another humans sexuality as he was to concerned with bigger issues like love and respect and really behaving in a way that (surely) any god of good would, with love and tolerance.
great post!

PS. and yes darwins dagger, you are right. man too often tries to shackle his logic to his concept of gods and largely misses the point entirely.

Anonymous said...

Okay, you got started, and not to major on the minors, but you were in some error. Jesus did not invalidate the OT law of the Jews. He came to fulfill it. Hell, we can't keep the ten commandments of our own power or own accord. Study Romans some time, or, as some have called it, the gospel according to Apostle Paul.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4)

Yes, I too see the Levitical law, love God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Jesus added, and your mind. Personally, I'll get flamed for this, but western Christianity has evolved into a sort of toxic Christianity in which we check our minds at the door and do or don't do what the pastor says.

We don't need a shepherd at that point. We need 2 D-cell Energizer batteries to keep keep going and going and going. It becomes robotic religion, which is hardly a spirit-filled life, much less being Spirit filled.

That's my two cents, FWIW.

Michael
mwpowellnm@comcast.net

Anonymous said...

1. for me, the essence if christianity is faith in christ Jesus and His finished work at calvary. ...whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I am made perfect in christ Jesus and there is now no condemnation for those in christ Jesus. Regarding sin of any nature, none of us are perfect in the flesh no matter how hard we try. this is why we shouldn't judge, but christs forgiveness is infinite.