Wednesday, May 03, 2006

Is Homosexuality a Perversion?

It's been a rough few days for me, but I'm back. Instead of writing a funny story or something that had transpired in my life---I am going to share with you an email I received from another blogger. She is Christian--but believes that all gay and lesbians are perverts. Maybe I can get your thoughts on this, regardless if you are in agreement or not. I like to get all different point of views. So please feel free to say what's on your mind and exactly how you feel about this topic. I welcome negative and positive feedback.

"Hi Deb,

You left a fairly lengthy comment on my blog back in March about homosexual statistics and for some reason blogger never notified me through email and I just stumbled across it the other day. Generally when someone takes so much time to leave a comment I like to respond, so my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. Thanks for taking the time to comment. In the future, feel free to send me an email directly if I don’t respond in a timely manner. You said that you think these ‘statistics’ are a bit off, because there are many heterosexuals that have had numerous partners…ie: prostitutes, people from broken homes, and other factors. While I don’t know the details of all the statistics, generally speaking I believe the stats are fairly accurate. I will agree with you that many heterosexuals have had numerous partners because I was one of them, and I even contracted STD’s from male partners. I also crossed over into the homosexual lifestyle for a time and participated in orgies and other perversions. But, thankfully through Christ I have been freed from that sinful lifestyle and I am happily married with three children.

Repeatedly, you said that you cannot judge, but Jesus says to “Judge with righteous judgment.” Time and time again Christians are commanded to judge, in fact, there is an entire book called Judges if you recall. Don’t get caught up in the cliché of “Do not judge” as it is not biblical. If you want to read further here is a great commentary => JUDGE RIGHTLY I noticed your attempt to justify your relationship with your “partner” because you didn’t fit into the category ‘of what homosexuals do’ and since you love each other and are committed to each other you think God will accept you. Yes, we all sin, like you stated. We all have had impure thoughts, we have all said a white lie here and there, we have all idolized at one time or another; which is in the category of sinning. But, the Bible is clear about sexual immorality and it has no place in God’s kingdom.You then made several references to symbolic laws in the OT about eating shellfish and women on her menstrual period and equated it as being just as “bad” as being a homosexual. Clearly there is nothing morally wrong about eating shellfish and God instituted those laws for symbolic reasons during that time.

The OT also says, “Do not murder” and “Do not commit adultery” shall we ignore those laws because it was written before Jesus’ time? You said, “If you have discernment, you should realize that the Old Testament is strictly for the time before Jesus. The Old Testament is a good tool for learning the past history of what went on in the beginning of time.”

The Apostle Paul says in 2 Timothy 3:16 -- “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” You focused heavily on OT verses in an attempt to justify living in sin with your partner, assuming the OT laws about homosexuality are no longer applicable. But, what do you have to say about the verses in the NT that clearly condemn homosexuality? This is what Paul says in Romans 1:18-27 -- “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness…Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools…Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever… For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.”

I Corinthians 6:8-10 – “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” Further, it is not just homosexuality, it is ALL sexual immorality (fornication, adultery, incest, ect.) Paul warns us again in I Corinthians 6:18-20 – “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”

So not only are you sinning against God by fornicating and practicing homosexuality, you are sinning against your own body. In closing you asked, “do you think God is going to throw us ALL in hell?” Well, this is what Jesus says in Revelation 21:8 – “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, SEXUALLY IMMORAL, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 22:14-15 – “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and SEXUALLY IMMORAL and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”

If you truly love God with all your heart like you claim, you should REPENT of your perverted lifestyle and humbly go before God and seek forgiveness. I only say this to you in a spirit of love and respect, in hopes that you will see the Truth and no longer blaspheme the name of our LORD.

In Christ,
~ Dani"


I replied back to her. I just find it so sad that these ‘so called Christians’ who walk in love---have so much hate. They focus so much on homosexuality—that they literally forget their relationship with God almost.

"Hi Dani,

My question is to you-----why do you focus so much on homosexuality? Why does it overtake your whole entire relationship with God?

In the Ten Commandments, does it say one thing about thou shall not commit homosexuality? ....No.

What about the seven deadly sins? None focus on homosexuality. Lust comes in both--hetero and homo.

If "you" walk in love, do you seriously think that Jesus would be acting the way you are? Are you trying to be "Christ-like" by judging others? I've noticed that a lot of Christian extremists are full of hate. They are discriminating and they spew hatred for those who are different. Jesus would never do that--nor would He be smiling down on you by your behavior towards the gay community.

9 our of 10 people have had premarrital sex. That alone is a sin. Do you think each and every one of those people are going to hell? Of course not.

To walk in love means to do just that... To be accepting and to love one another regardless of sins. It's to show compassion to those who suffer with sin---which means everybody. We are all suffering on this earth from sin. Our carnal nature vs. the spirit is a constant battle.

Can you throw the first stone?

Remember in the book of John, where the woman was caught in adultery? A crowd brought her to Jesus so she could be stoned. Jesus asked them, "Those of you who have never sinned throw the first stone..." They all scattered away. Not one accuser was able to do this.

Everyone is a sinner. Everyone shares the struggle; you, me, and everybody on this earth.
Walk in love. Try showing some acceptance and try focusing on 'your life' and 'your struggles' instead of trying to hurt people by claiming they live a perverted lifestyle. We are not hurting anyone. Are we hurting you? Have you been hurt by homosexuals? Do they try to hunt you down and kill you? Of course not. Do they say hateful words to you? Have you had a horrible experience with a gay person? What's all the hatred about?

The type of Christianity you follow isn't one that walks in love. It walks in hate. I feel bad for you, because you're more stressed about other people's lifestyle than your own. Do you know that 'hate in your heart' will eventually kill you inside? Do you realize how much hate manifests itself if it's not controlled? And, do you know who plants that seed of hate inside you? ...Satan.

I'll pray for you, because I feel that you have some issues inside your heart you need to deal with. You're probably a great person with a lot of love to give---but that hate will get in the way every time.

I wish you well, and I hope that maybe this will make you see that we're not bad people. We don't want to hurt you, and we don't hate you. Perversion comes in many, many forms. It comes in heterosexual forms, it comes from homosexual forms, and it can come from other horrific forms. I believe my relationship with my partner is a personal one; as well as one that's blessed by God.

Thank you for taking the time out to write to me.

With love,
Deb"

As far as Dani’s questions regarding the New Testament’s laws and what I feel is to be true—I believe that Jesus died for all of us on the cross. He died for all of our sins. He paid the full price. I do believe that if you’re a good person, with a good heart and have compassion for others, then God sees your heart.

Through faith, we are God’s children. Galatians explains it perfectly. 

God’s Children Through Faith

"Let me put it in another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God. But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. So you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are ALL Christians—you are one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you." ~Galatians 3:24-29

There is a huge difference between sinning and a sinful heart. Sinning is simply being human. A sinful heart desires to sin – it wants to hurt people and deliberately wants to steal your joy. A human that sins is natural. We repent and have faith in God. We no longer go by the laws of Moses. This is why God gave us His only son. We are freed from the law.

Here… Look at Galatians chapter two verses 17 through 21:

"But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God’s approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me an gave himself for me. I am not one for those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die."

Pretty huge statement if you think about it. “For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.”

If you constantly live in fear about God’s judgment, then your faith in Jesus isn’t strong. If you truly had faith in Jesus and claimed Him as your Savior, then you would know that the old law doesn’t apply to us anymore. We were bound by the law, but by the grace of God and His sacrifice of His son, we are made right with him. We live in our carnal bodies. We live here on earth, desiring earthly things. But if we have faith that’s strong and true, God isn’t going to just cast you away. God loves you. He knows how hard it is and what challenges we go through here on earth. This is the whole reason Jesus came for us.

I truly feel sad when people make statements such as, “Well, you’re mocking God because you won’t repent and you keep on sinning and claiming Christ as your Savior.” If you really think about it, those people who say that are mocking God by not trusting in Jesus’ death. They don’t feel that Jesus’ death was enough. He paid the price in full. Sometimes I truly believe that one of the main reasons why so many gay and lesbian people change from Christianity to Agnostic or even Atheist is because of discouraging Christians bible thumping judgmental arguments at us. They are constantly attacking us with hateful words. If I saw someone committing adultery, it is none of my business. That is for God to judge---and only God. I don’t hate people who commit adultery or have premarital sex--or whatever their sin may be.

Walking in love means to do ‘just that’… I think it’s awful that these ‘so called Christians’ will discourage so many people trying to please God. If anyone makes a person turn away from God—that alone is a sin. I know some people can state, “Well she’s trying to make you see that being gay is a sin.” Well then I say, focus on your own sins and stop judging others and making them feel horrible about themselves. I’ve seen this with a lot of homosexuals. They even get to the point of suicidal tendencies. Do you really want that?

I’m strong in my faith with God, so nothing is going to tear me down—especially a person who walks in hate. Think about this, you never see a rally against people who lie. You never see a hate rally against premarital sex. You’ll never, ever see a rally against envy. Why are they so focused on us?

"God loved the world so much, that Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, was freely given, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"It is inevitable that stumbling blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble." Luke 17: 1-2

"All people will know that you are my disciples if you love one another." John 13:35.
Please visit this website for more information about Gay Christians.

If you all want to see Dani's site about her hatred against homosexuals, visit her blog here.

For more of Deb's articles, please visit: www.debrapasquella.com or join her on Facebook and Twitter. Check out her cooking blog for some of her famous recipes!

162 comments:

Big Mama said...

I am SO GLAD you are back! I missed you. You know how I feel about this subject. I was talking to my daughter the other day and she asked me what the worst thing I had ever done. I told her and I told her I wasn't proud of it and I still feel guilty about it. She said,"Aww that's not so bad Mama, I'm sure that girl doesn't even remember..." I replied,"I do though and I carry that with me every day. You always have to remember that at the end of the day you have to be right with God and yourself. If you are not right with yourself, you will not sleep or eat and if you're not right with God, you'll never rest."
I know where I stand and I really feel sorry for Dani, she is hiding behind the Bible and taking quotes out of context for her own personal use. I really hope she opens her heart and realizes what the real meaning of love and loving your fellow man/woman.

At the end of the day, you gotta be right with it....

messiah said...

my favourite bumper sticker of all time is "my karma ran over my dogma".

what you have outlined in your post is my main issue with religion (i'll compound that by stating 'organized religion'). the catholics are some of the worst.

i believe in god. i am a spiritual person. i have issues with having an interpretation dictated - with not being involved with the process.

she missed the whole 'before you remove the mote of dust from someone's eye, remove the beam from your own' section. (i know, that was terribly paraphrased)

the bible, in my opinion is the word of God, as written/interpreted by 'man'. and most likely written to be understood by the people at the time it was written. like fables, easy to understand stories with a moral message. guidelines to live by.

i was always of the opinion that part of being a christian is about loving, and acceptance. striving for change and betterment. that is what the main difference between the new and old testament is to me.

the change from judgement to forgiveness. the basic rules never changed, just the way they're looked at.

she's out of line.

the faults you see most clearly in others, are most often the faults you suffer from the most yoruself.

peace deb.

TrappedInColorado said...

Deb - my new spirituality of not judging people, giving them the benefit of the doubt, walking a mile in their shoes was sorely tested reading that bigot in Christian clothes letter to you. You hit the nail right on the head with your response. You can find anything you want in the bible to justify hate. Ofcourse, most is taken out of context but as long as it is written then it must be law. I do feel sad for her. She deludes herself everyday to justify her hate. And make no mistake.. she may say she prays for you and loves you.. but it is hate and it will consume her. I pity her husband and I am sad for her kids who will be influenced by her own perverted Christianity.
My heart goes out to you for all these transgressions against you because of your lifestyle. I can not walk a mile in your shoes except for the times I have been called a sinner because I do not go to church and follow the checklist of Christianity. It still does not compare to the prejudice you endure.
I support you, Deb. In heart and mind.

Peace

Grant said...

I'll admit I didn't read the entire post because as soon as I saw the phrase "Judge with righteous judgment" I thought "Oh, crap - Dani's back." She's commented on my blog before, calling me a hypocrite for giving xtians grief but not explaining her claim, and I didn't care enough about her opinion to ask. I visited one of her blogs once and the latest post was a link to a site with pictures of dead babies that they think is a valid argument against abortion (gross = evil). She's one of those hateful xtians who wield their religion like a hammer and use it to bash everyone who doesn't agree with them. I suggest you stop wasting your time on her because it's like mud-wrestling with a pig - you'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it. BTW - I once looked up some of her bible quotes and was not surprised to find that the few not taken out of context were completely wrong.

As a neo-Satanic cannibal, I don't have anything against you homos, although I wish you'd limit it to just the guys because I like the idea of there being more available women than men. However, your bible makes it somewhat clear (as clear as anything in it) that homosexuality is considered wrong and a sin, therefore the pervert label is not entirely off base from an xtian standpoint. If somebody believes that it is wrong then, in their mind, your sex life is perverted. Of course, a lot of them take it further to imply that perverted = evil, which applies to all aspects of your life.

Still, you're one of the most devout and non-hypocritical xtians I know (don't bother explaining how you can be gay and a Christian - you already told me and I understand). Just keep being yourself and everyone will continue to love you for the overly popular, 10 feed having blogger that you are. =)

Bossy♥'s YOU said...

I missed you while you were gone..now on to other matters at hand..

This burns my britches. I can not stand when "christan" people are so damn judgemntal. It is NOT OUR place to do the judgeing. That is up to GOD not us. And I would not call homosexaulity a perviserion by any means..Priest that are shuffled around from church to churh becuase they are raping little boys, or molesting girls is what I call a pervierion. The high archy of the church has no concept of what this means. The life and well being a of child is thrown aside, but yet they condem gays. Makes no sence to me.

This woman admits to having a gay reltionship, does she feel she is above going to hell now becuase she is married with a few kids? Murders arent let free ..they will burn in hell..so what makes her any differnt then? A child raper may have repented, may have come to Christ, but does that mean he will be sitting next to me in Heaven?..I sure as hell hope not.

How is she free from the pits of hell? According to her the damage is already been done..

Just beacuse she covers up her gay tendencies with marrige and kids, does not make her any less a sinner then.

None of this makes scense does it?

normiekins said...

messiah ^^^ right on target.....the Bible is an "interpretation by man" and yes you can find any verse to support a position....Dani needs to check out Exodus 35:2, 21:7 and Leviticus 11:7.....it's all a matter of interpretation.......i support you Deb....heart mind and soul....because you are a good human being....! Missed you much. Welcome back!

east village idiot said...

I'm not a theologian but I truly believe that when you walk in love - Jesus doesn't give a dam if the hand you're holding is a man or a woman. When two people truly love each other they are living expressions of the glory and grace of God.

anna said...

People need to worry about their own selves and what happens in their own homes, not what goes on in anyone else's. Good for you, sticking up for yourself. I hate hypocrites.

Sometimes Saintly Nick said...

Deb, I disagree with Dani’s theology and interpretation of scripture. I could write a comment here that would be book length, but I won’t.

For the record, I am an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ and my sexual orientation is heterosexual.

The United Church of Christ is at the moment in conflict regarding a resolution passed by our General Synod last summer entitled “In Support of Equal Marriage Rights for All,” which says (in part):

“. We… recognize and affirm that all humans are made in the image and likeness of God, including people of all sexual orientations, and God has bestowed upon each one the gift of human sexuality. Further, we recognize and affirm that, as created in God’s image and gifted by God with human sexuality, all people have the right to lead lives that express love, justice, mutuality, commitment, consent and pleasure.”

There are some in the United Church of Christ who take Dani’s view; the majority, however, accept the view of the General Synod.

The base line is that I believe that homosexuality is neither a perversion nor a sin. I applaud your response to Dani.
.

AWE said...

I have tried to write 3 replies to this post and keep deleting them.

This is a much shorter version.

My bottom line, there are always two sides to every argument. You are going to read the Bible one way she the other. Just let it go and move on, it will drive you nuts trying to find the reason.

Dani said...

Hi Deb -

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I only focus on homosexuality because you are a self-proclaimed "Christian" homosexual and you are trying to justify your lifestyle in God's eyes. I merely presented the verses in the Bible that condemn homosexuality and you got extremely defensive and accused me of being hateful. Never once did I say I hate homosexuals, in fact if you remember, I once lived that lifestyle too and understand the destruction is can bring. Over half a dozen time you accused me of being hateful and judgmental............isn't that a bit judgmental of you? For someone who believes we should not judge, seems a bit hypocritical to me.

In the Ten Commandments it says, You shall not commit adultery. God designed sex to remain within marriage and marriage is defined as a union between one man and one woman. According to God, adultery is in the same class as bestiality, incest, homosexual acts, child molestation, or rape. All sex outside of marriage is wrong and destructive. God cares not if you are in a loving, committed relationship. If you were openly living with your boyfriend, I would tell you the same thing.

Would Jesus be smiling down at you while you profess Him as Lord and Savior, yet you are in a non-married sexual relationship? Would God be pleased to know that you ignore what He says in the Bible about sexual immorality? Would God really just be loving and accepting of your unrepentant sins?

Sure, 9 our of 10 people have had premarital sex - so does that make it okay? Should God allow all of the sexually immoral people into heaven? When Jesus met woman who was caught in adultery, He told her "Now go and sin no more." God does not send sins to hell, He sends people to hell.

I don't think you're some bad, horrible person, but I do NOT like it when people mock God, especially homosexuals.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Does God say, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, unless you are in a "loving and committed" relationship? NO! If you truly love God, like you claim, you will honor Him in your life and in all you do.

“Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”

Does God say, flee from sexual immorality, unless you are in a "loving and committed" relationship? NO!

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.”

God has already given you over to your own lusts and vile passions, and you have willingly exchanged the Truth of God for a lie. DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED --- Whatever a man sows, he will also reap!

I only hope that you can experience the true freedom that comes with knowing Christ.
Thanks again for the discussion!

Dani

Tai said...

Not being gay OR christian, I think I'll keep my two cents to myself!

~Deb said...

1 Corinthians 9-10 Don’t you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers—none of these will have a share of the Kingdom of God.

Now as you may read this as a confirmation that people will never go to heaven if they do this, keep reading the next verses. They failed to read the next verse.

Verse 11 (continued) There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God has done for you.

You failed to add that next verse in there.

What this says to me is, Jesus knows we are all imperfect. He made us the way we are. He loves us regardless, if God did not love us, then He would not have sent His only son up on the cross for us to be saved by our sins. This is a huge thing. Think about what you would do. If you have a son, would you let him die on the cross for someone else? It’s one of the greatest sacrifices made, and I thank Him everyday..! Now as the scripture goes, think about this… (Those who indulge in sexual sin.)

Okay, let’s take a look at how many people have premarital sex. (I know we already discussed this...) But I do NOT think it is the same as incest or rape. You are WAY off with that. Incest and rape HURTS. Loving another human being does not.

So premarrital sex is about 90% of the United State’s population right there. Think about your first time having sex. I know I was at the age of six-teen with my boyfriend who I did love very much. I realized that at the age of nine-teen I had to reveal who I really was. (Idol worshipers) Okay, to idolize is to put anything before God. How many people including yourself, sleep in a little bit and don’t go to church on Sunday, or work a twelve hour shift to come home, eat and then go to sleep, and too busy with your husband/wife or lover? This is called idolizing. Making other things in your life a priority is to idolize. (Adulterers) I think we know at least one person who has committed this sin. Think of it this way, two married people separate, and start seeing someone new before the divorce is final. That alone is committing adultery. (Male prostitutes) This is symbolizing the need for money through sexual intimacy. Many of them out there, and this has nothing to do with ‘gender’ alone, it is how the bible formatted itself to the new versions. But generally speaking, it means selling yourself for sexual favors.

(Thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, swindlers and yes, homosexuals.)

The human race is officially extinct now! There is no one left! Do you think God put us here on earth to just throw us in hell? Give Him more credit than that. He loves you, and knows that this earth is full of sin. As long as God knows your heart and knows your motives- you are saved through Jesus Christ. The one main thing is confess your sins to God and let Him know what you are struggling with.

Matthew 5:7 God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

As simple as that! If we can become more tolerant towards people in our lives, we can also feel reassured that God is going to be more tolerant towards us. That alone gives me peace of mind.

I don't judge you for who you were Dani, or who you are now, or what your other 'new sins' are today...I accept you as "you". I have no right to judge you.

The act of judging is the act of hating in my beliefs.

Thank you, for responding to this post. I do appreciate it.

kathi said...

I don't know this dani, and you haven't left a link to her blog. I don't know what her usual tone is, but this didn't come across as hostile to me. Yeah, go ahead and start throwing those stones at me now people!! I love deb with all my heart and I'm fairly sure she knows it.
Loving someone doesn't mean you always agree with them. Standing up for them, YES, but agreeing? No. And trust me, I have (and always will have) debs back.
This dani put a lot of thought and time into this letter to deb and I didn't see hate there, I saw conviction...hers, but not hate. She may have very well written this letter in love, who are we to judge her?
I don't begin to confess that I understand Gods Word completely. I read and I pray for the leading and guiding of His Holy Spirit as I read.
What I do know is that God loves deb just as He loves dani, and me. I also know that deb takes many, many opportunities to share Christ with others and to glorigy His name, and that is our sole purpose for being.
Oh yeah, if you have any complaints about me, email them to deb first, she filters all my hate mail.

luckysevn said...

Well, since you've already covered casting stones and John 8:3-7, my two cents worth of scripture is John 5:41-42, where Jesus said to the Pharisees, "Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, because I know you don't have God's love within you."

Rather than trod the path of the conforming, condescending, condemning and judgemental, you choose to spread the Gospel in a loving way. The way Christ would want you to. Too many have been forced to turn from his Love and Salvation because they have been hurt by the words of others using Scripture for their own benefit, just as the Jewish leaders of Christ's time did. I'm no Bible Scholar, but I do know that Christ showed love, compassion, and acceptance - and I choose to do the same. I'm sorry that there are people in this world that are unable to appreciate your inner beauty simply because of your lifestyle...

~Deb said...

Kathi, so do you think that my relationship with my partner of 12 yrs is just like incest or raping someone? That’s what she is trying to tell me. She is telling me that my lifestyle with my partner is perverted.

That to me, is judging. I know that everyone has their own opinion. This I do know. Thanks for responding Kath!

kathi said...

Well, crap. As soon as I hit publish, dani had put up a new comment.
Jesus, as well as the prophets, called 'em as He saw 'em. The only time He spoke in anger was when He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. When He was beaten, spit at and cursed at, He asked His Dad to forgive them, because regardless of what they were doing to Him, He loved them and whether they knew it or not, what He was doing was for them. Until that last breath is taken, we each still have the opportunity of asking Christ into our hearts and repenting of our sins, and that is the only way to spend eternity with the Father.
What I can say is: If you don't say it in love, then it is NOT of God. Judge that.

kathi said...

deb ~ is incest and love done out of love? No, of course not. You are not only walking in love, but leading others to the only real Love, Jesus Christ.
But even if someone is judging you, you're called to love that person, pray for that person, because Christ still died for that person.

Bri said...

Deb wow I could seriously rip this woman apart right now. Maybe I should gather my thoughts and then respond back later...
It's amazing how some people can have so much hate against others and judge you, being so fixed in belief. What you and Madeline have is a beautiful thing and no one can take that from you two. Love you. Bri

TrappedInColorado said...

Deb,

What do you call people in China? Chinese.
What to you call people in Russia? Russian.
What do you call people in the bathroom? European. Get it? har dee har har guffaw yuck yuck

Peace

You don't have to post this ... just felt like throwing some humor (juvenile as it is) your way. :)

JD said...

i don't have time for a full-blown comment, just that i read the entire thing and that i missed you. welcome back.

Dani said...

Wow Bri - you could "seriously rip this woman apart right now" ---That's not hateful at all, now is it?

Deb - Your relationship with your partner is unnatural. No matter how much love you have for one another, homosexuality is perverted and not what God designed. As you know, In the beginning, God created Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve. Not Amanda and Eve.

I am sure you are a wonderful person, but you are still living a sexually immoral life - and God clearly condemns that in His Word!

Thanks again for letting me speak my mind!

P.S. Would some please do a real study in the Bible about JUDGE RIGHTLY or quit judging me you hypocrites!

texasshiva said...

I thought, with Jesus, the law (including Deuteronomy and Leviticus) was fulfilled. I always saw the OT as background text for the NT, personally, and that there were only two commandments actually handed down for believers to follow. I could be wrong.

Last time I checked, the OT still contained prohibitions against wearing clothes made of more than once fabric (there goes cotton/polyester blends) and of touching pigskin (there goes the whole NFL).

The whole picking and choosing which Levitical laws to "enforce" mentality is discrimination clothed in (self-)righteousness.

While you and I don't agree on religion as a whole, Deb, I will back you up against this sort of hateful cherry-picking any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

~Deb said...

Ironic you should use the word "hypocrite"... I think you need to evaluate what it is to walk in love and to stop focusing so much on homosexuality. Are you still struggling with it to make you lash out at other gay and lesbians?

God loves all of us.

Did you hear the great news? Jesus died for all of our sins! And, Jesus forgives! Isn't that awesome?

If we are good people--God knows our hearts. If God sees that another person is trying to tear others down--don't you think that alone will be judged?

Walk in love...Accept those who are different from you--Jesus did.

WWJD?

Dani said...

Should we also accept rapists, murderers, and child-molesters too? Don't want to be judgmental towards them, now do we? Should we just love and accept their lifestyle because they are different? Where do we draw the line of love and acceptance?

The Bible does NOT say, "Hate the sin and love the sinner."

God says, "I HATE ALL WHO DO INIQUITY" - PSALM 5:5

It's true, God knows our hearts, and ultimately you are accountable only to HIM.

messiah said...

i'm so confused....

you're wrong.
you're going to hell.
"Thanks again for the discussion!"

i can't find the 'discussion!'

Catey Maxx said...

Deb
Firstly, I stumbled upon your site and love it. I felt compelled to comment on this, the 1st post I read. I’ve got to say I’m disturbed by some of the comments made by Dani in relation to whether or not homosexuality is a perversion.
My views on religion are quite widespread, and I don’t adhere to one religion in particular. I do, however, try my very best to live an honest, decent and loving existence which, if it had to be pigeonholed, would I guess, lean towards the realms of Buddhism. I constantly feel disheartened by people, purporting to be Christians, who insight such hatred towards their fellow human beings; who judge so indiscriminately, and then attempt to back up this hatred with quotations from the bible with total intransigence.

1. “The OT also says, “Do not murder” and “Do not commit adultery" shall we ignore those laws because it was written before Jesus’ time?”
Am I to believe that God perceives being gay in the same as way being a murderer? (And just to ruffle a few more feathers – must I therefore believe that committing adultery (as horrendous as it is) should carry the same sentence as committing murder?)

2. “You focused heavily on OT verses in an attempt to justify living in sin with your partner, assuming the OT laws about homosexuality are no longer applicable.”
“Laws?” I am an entirely law abiding citizen who causes no harm to anyone. I live in peace, and although I’m far from perfect, I am accepting and compassionate.

3. “this is what Jesus says in Revelation 21:8 – “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, SEXUALLY IMMORAL, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Well – bring it on! Sorry to appear fickle, but by its very nature in today’s society, being gay is not cowardly – it’s entirely the opposite. It’s about being honest and true to yourself and allowing yourself the chance of a perfectly normal and content existence. Its about facing this kind of ignorance and bigotry, rising above it and breaking free of the shackles that rule the obviously unhappy lives of people who carry such hatred in their hearts.

4. “If you truly love God with all your heart like you claim, you should REPENT of your perverted lifestyle and humbly go before God and seek forgiveness.” You, I and anybody else out there who’s gay should do no such thing. There’s depravity in all aspects of life – gay or straight. By its very nature the word ‘pervert’ means ‘to cause to turn away from what is right, proper or good.’ Isn’t that what the writer of this post is doing? Right, proper and good is living a life devoid of judgement and hatred. It’s living a life abundant in love and compassion. I see no evidence of either from what I have read!

5. “I only say this to you in a spirit of love and respect”
Love and respect = acceptance, kindness and tolerance. Again, I see no evidence of this!! And is this not central to the Christian philosophy?

I’m in a loving, monogamous, beautiful relationship with my true soul mate. We meet in a higher place on every level, which provides us with what can only be described as heaven! If the price we have to pay is fire and brimstone in the afterlife, then, all I can say is that it’ll have been worth it. I’d rather that, than hell on earth – which would be to deny my sexuality!!

kathi said...

That's my girl, deb.

~Deb said...

Dani? Are you absolutely serious with what you just said?

"...Should we also accept rapists, murderers, and child-molesters too? Don't want to be judgmental towards them, now do we? Should we just love and accept their lifestyle because they are different? Where do we draw the line of love and acceptance?"

Do you really think that my relationship or anyone's relationship that is monogomous and out of love is equal to rapists and murderers?

But remember this----GOD is a forgiving God.

We are not killing anybody...so what do you care of how I live my lifestyle or anyone else's?

I think you have hidden issues you need to tend to. You're angry and your website proves that to be so.

What a hateful person you are. I wish the best for you.

Dani said...

What a judgmental person you are, Deb!

~Deb said...

Explain to me how I'm judgmental? I think the majority stands to say that your site is full of hate, and that your words are full of hate.

I just told you that I didn't judge you for being a lesbian in the past, nor did I judge you for anything else you've done 'today'. I have no right to.

All I am saying is, let's just all live in peace and not bother with who's doing what.

Let go and let God. :)

Peace...!

TrappedInColorado said...

Dani.. I implore you to get help! Not only for your own sake but for your kids! Bringing them up in a house of hate is just simply wrong. Hopefully they will have enough of a soul left after your venomous brainwashing to see the truth. I will wish them the best. You, I think, are lost. I'm sorry for you.

Dani said...

Calling me hateful, is not only judgmental, it is hateful too.

Don't be a hypocrite!

Funny how intolerant you and everyone else is of me and my views.

~ Much Love!

~Deb said...

You still haven't explained why you think that I'm judgmental. (???)

Also, if anybody reads your website, they will know that those words are of 'hate'...not of love.

You use terms like "faggots, HOMO" and other slangs to describe my lifestyle.

Do you think that's walking in love?

Miss Ann Thrope said...

I don't know if this went thru the first time...if so ignore it.

I think I qualify for pervert status with a good dose of what could definitely be considered 'unnatural acts' thrown in there for good measure.

But I'm het and married so i'm saved and shit. Right?

Now I gave up on religion a long time ago but i seem to remember something about behaving as Jesus behaved...something like that...which I pretty much took that as 'get a life.'

He forgave whores and adulterers. People need to stfu.

I'm just saying.

Russ said...

I'm not a Christian, but if I was I'd imagine that Jesus and God would be fully accepting of people who bring love into the world instead of hate. Doesn't matter whether you love a man, woman, your children, your elders, your pets - all you need is love, a wise man once said.

I totally agree with you, too. I think the bible-bashers should focus on their own lives instead of other peoples'. The religions I like best are those that focus on a PERSONAL relationship between you and whatever deity you choose to worship. I've never understood why some christians choose to make it their life's mission to save everyone else. If I want saving, I'll know what I have to do. And if that were true, I would choose to focus on saving MYSELF first.

That's just my two cents anyway. Apologies in advance if any of this was offensive.

Kim said...

I have been married to the same man for 25 years and I am working on the Christian thing. I am not very knowlegeable on this topic but I like to think I am a "Mind my own business person and let God take care of his business". I think this topic is between the person and God. I don't think it is our place to "judge" . I guess I was in major violation of Biblical law because I was a big big woman for many years and gluttony is specifically named in the bible. Should I have been avoided/banned or advised that I was eternally damned because I was is disobeying the whole gluttony/treat your body like a temple instruction? At any rate I guess my stance is "Not my business it is God's"
P.S. I love you blog...you are very clever and you make me laugh! Right now I need some laughter in my life...Thanks!

say it hot said...

I feel sorry for homophobes who hide behind the robes of God, Jesus, and The Holy Ghost. Many of them find comfort in their conviction that they are "only quoting God's word" when they so carefully lash out at homosexuals.

They selectively use portions of the bible to shield themselves from whatever it is that scares them about anyone different from themselves.

Homosexuality is only briefly mentioned in the bible. Why isn't there more condemnation of other subjects that are ENDORSED by the bible, such as slavery, or self mutilation (cutting off your hands or gouging your eyes out)?

Religion is important to everyone, not just people who claim to have a copyright on it, and attempt to elucidate it, using hate and fear as translators. I doubt God values this.

Remember, Jesus's paramount, poignant, and most repeated statement:
"You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 19:19; 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10;27; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8)

Deb is a woman of strong character. She is someone with a voice that needs to be heard. I appreciate her and her blog.

Keep up the good work Deb.

Spectator said...

This stems from the lack of tolerance from a mere human. Don’t even bother with this woman, Deb. Why even let her bother you? It is obvious that she has her own evils that are making her intolerant towards other people.

The Dangers of Criticism Romans 14

Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes that it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who think it is all right to eat anything MUST NOT LOOK DOWN ON THOSE WHO WON’T. And those who won’t eat certain foods MUST NOT CONDEMN THOSE WHO DO, for God has accepted them. WHO ARE YOU TO CONDEMN GOD’S SERVANTS? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord’s power will help them do as they should.

This means that Dani has NO RIGHT to judge anybody for she has her own evils to tend to. Don’t think her life is perfect! NO ONE’S life is perfect.

Dani said...

Well, I'm not a HOMO, that's for sure!

green said...

~deb: taking the Bible literally as I (or anyone should) do, I have to agree with Dani that the Bible speaks clearly out against a homosexual lifestyle.

Yes God understands that humans, because of the fall are sinful and need forgiveness. And yes, that Jesus died for our sins so that one day we can see Him as He is and dwell with Him if we accept the sacrifice Jesus made for us.

I'm certainly in no position to judge you for your lifestyle, being divorced and having committed many a sexual sin myself. Do I still count myself a Christian? Absolutely. Will you judge me for these sins of mine? No, I don't think you will, because you are not a judgmental person, knowing what kind of person you are by what you have written over a long period of time, I can tell your faith in Christ is genuine.

I did not see any hate in what Dani wrote towards you, just concern. And knowing what yo do of me from reading my blog I think you know that by saying this I am not judging you nor hating you for your lifestyle.

Having said that, ultimately how God views your lifestyle is between you and Him and what I think matters not.

Everyone will stand before God to be judged one of these days. God shows no partiality toward sin and I believe in God's eyes murder is just as big of a sin as is adultery, fornication, lying, cheating, etc.

One more thing: Who were those Levitical laws written for? They were written to and for Israel. We as Christians are not required to follow them, having freedom in Christ. Still though Christians are commanded not to abuse the freedoms that we have in Christ.

But we as Christians are still bound by the ten commandments becasue Jesus reaffirmed that they apply to all men (humanity, not men specifically) So the prohibition against eating shellfish does not apply, nor does the wearing of a garment of mixed fabric constitute a sin. But this is just my humble opinion, based on reading of the text taken in context.

Also in reply to another comment here on this post: Christians cannot save you or anyone and it should not be their goal to do so. Christians are commanded though to spread the Word of God to all nations and peoples and tribes. Whether it has any affect on you is the domain of the Holy Spirit, for no one is capable of coming to God under his own power. It is by the grace of God that He draws sinners to Himself.

I apologize if my thoughts here are a tad incoherent. I just got out of working a ten hour shift...

say it hot said...

Green,
to quote Dani "Well, I'm not a HOMO, that's for sure!"

If you don't think she is a hateful person, you should read her blog.

Already I regret suggesting that her blog be read because it only gives her moronic babblings an audience.

She is anti-feminism, anti-gay, anti-public school, anti-CHOICE.

Supposedly she is pro-liberty. That's a laugh. How can a person be pro-liberty, yet be anti-choice?

She is pro-taxpayer funded murder.
Pro-gun.

I am sad for her children who are being taught hate and will grow up to be homogenized versions of herself.

A person's favorite film and music taste tell a lot about what sort of person they are.

Anonymous said...

Can you believe she has children that are going to be raised in her household?

Dani said...

I am so "hateful" because I didn't make a CHOICE to kill my own children inside my womb. You got me there!

Wicked - wicked Christian that I am! Oh yeah - and I listen to Eminem too!

green said...

I'm not going to say I endorse everything Dani says or writes on her blog, but as far as I can tell from a cursory reading, her interpretation of the Bible is spot on.

While I have the stage here, i invite you to check out a highly controversial blog God vs. Darwin in which I and three others cordially discuss topics relating to religion. Please join the discussion by posting a comment...

Miranda said...

Wow, what a post, what a load of comments you got. I just have to shake my head. She said she even "also crossed over into the homosexual lifestyle for a time and participated in orgies and other perversions", So now she's homophobic?

Im not a religious person, I do believe in God. Love.

Is Dani putting homosexuals in the same catagory as murders and rapists?

A heart knows no gender, love one another. Deb you have your love, and arent hurting anyone. Im pretty sure that God will be ok with that.

I believe in the end God will judge, and if you are a good person, it will all be good. Just as Dani has said that she's been 'freed', but really she must wait until her day to be judged comes.

~Deb said...

Dani said...
..."Well, I'm not a HOMO, that's for sure!"

Dani, if you were addicted to alcohol, addicted to gossip or even committed adultery, I wouldn't say to you, "Well at least I'm not an alcoholic gossip who cheats on my husband!" I would not say anything...I would not judge you.

Just by you saying, "At least I'm not a HOMO" makes you look like a hypocrite with just those words.

And Green, you said, "I did not see any hate in what Dani wrote towards you, just concern.

How does, "At least I'm not a HOMO" come across? Do you think that was said in love? Do you think that's what Jesus would say? Do you think she really has concern for the gay and lesbian community? No. She practically spit on us. But that's okay, because we now know her true character. I do appreciate your comment green---and I do know where you're coming from.

I appreciate everyone who commented and gave me their honest opinions and shared their beliefs, whether it was positive or negative. Thank you...

Everyone is different. Everyone has a different walk with Christ--and everyone has the right to not pick Christianity as a religion. I respect that.

And what does listening to Eminem have to do with anything? (haha) Sorry, but I had to laugh. It sounded very random.

say it hot said...

Green said it best when he said "her interpretation". She, like anyone else, is entitled.

Dani, I said your language demonstrates a propensity towards hate, not that you are hateful for choosing to have your children. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

I will tell you why you come across as hateful.

You manifest as a hateful person because you seem to expect everyone else to subscribe to the same idealogies that you subscribe to. You just believe you are right. Period.

So did Hitler.
No one had any choices under Hitler.

Why do pro-lifers deny the importance of the idea of choice?

God gave us free will so that we could learn and develop and progress and love. Doing those things is a choice. Try using your free will to choose productive and globably loving thoughts instead of destructive and devisive ones. You say you are anti-Bush, but you certainly act like him.

Maybe you should go on a mission Dani, to a third world country where people aren't as blessed as we are.

Starvation, rape, and war.
Children without parents.
People wrongly imprisoned and executed.
The destruction of the environment God gave to us.
Homelesness and drug addiction.

Maybe you should concentrate your efforts and your writing to helping people who need it, instead of putting negative energy out. You must feed on that negative energy. You must get some personal satisfaction out of it. What is it? What do you gain from it?
Is that the feeling God wants you to have?

Stop using God and Christianity as weapons.

It is just plain wrong.

Valkyrie said...

Dani has come onto my blog and attacked ME for the life I live and the things I believe in.

When I challenged her, she played the "YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE." card she always pulls out. Along with her name calling card.

My advice? Ignore her. An ex-pal told me once that she wasn't worth my time. That person was right and she isn't worth yours.

--R

Natalia said...

Well...it's easy for me...although I respect people's opinions... Simply... I find religion a crock...especially those based on a book written by humans to control other humans and make them fearful so they will lead a life that is non-threatening.

But I respect those who choose to live by it. It's just sad some people use it as a hatred tool.

*le sigh*

-N

James said...

Wow, this is a really thought-provoking post. I'm always amazed that people get so hung up on the sexuality of others when they have their own issues to work through.

Miranda said...

That is sooo true James.

Tyler Dawbin said...

Deb, did God ever condemn child molestation in the Bible?

the voice said...

Hey Deb! I read this with interest, as I am planning a post dealing with this very issue. I am currently researching the Bible, trying to get all my T's crossed and my I' dotted, if you will. You see, there may be Scripture that, while not condoning homosexuality, at least refutes the notion that God declared it a sin. But, I agree, that regardless of whether it is or isn't sin, it is not for any human to judge another on their sin. Jesus was very emphatic about that. I believe you may find my post enlightning, or at least woth reading. I will let you know when I'm ready to post it. Can I come to you if I have questions regarding your faith and lifestyle? Please be assured that all Christians are not so condemning. God bless you today, Ken

Grace said...

Oh my goodness! Ummm, Dani... I don't know you and I've never visited your blog, so I can tell you right now that the impression that I've gotten of you today was completely unbiased. I just have one question to ask you: WHO ARE YOU TO BE TELLING OTHERS THAT THEY ARE SINNERS??? Are you God? Are you God's representative on earth? Seriously, what qualifications do you have to be placing such judgments on people? I'm a practicing Christian, I believe in the Bible and God's love for us, and I can tell you that I (a simple, Christian, 21 year old girl) believe that it is none of your business to be worrying about other people's lives. Only God can judge us. YOU cannot! I would suggest that you concentrate on yourself and your own personal faults before going about attacking others. I've been a loyal reader of Deb's blog for many months now and I feel nothing but love and respect toward her, for she's one of the kindest and most loving people I've ever associated with. So don't mess with her... mess with yourself. Unless God has sent you to earth to do his judging for him, you should probably only speak when you have something nice to say. It's the polite thing to do. Prove us wrong and maybe we'll all pitch in to buy you a nice judge gown.

Jon said...

Deb, You are the best.

I am agnostic so I don't tend to get into the religion arguements. I respect that you and anyone else out their has their opinions, and that the interpretations are far and wide. No one is right, and the person that thinks they are should ask themselves why there are so many different religions.

I think that you should be happy with the fact that you are loved by Maddie and a slew of other people. Leave Dani to stew in her self-righteousness. Let her believe what she is going to believe. Nothing you or anyone else says is going to change her opinion.

The fact that she comes to your blog and tells you that you are wrong is clearly a sign that she either has an agenda that she is pushing, or she wants the attention from you and the rest of your friends fighting back. It is a pathetic act and should not be encouraged.

I just thought of something.... What if the Hari-Krishnas are the only ones getting to heaven? Wouldn't we all feel kind of stupid. I am going to go shave my head.

...from a self-proclaimed "pervert"

Chai Anyone? said...

ill go with james on this one. i am amazed at how judgemental people can be at another's life. who the hell do you think you are anyway. and who died and put you on that pedestal??? being gay and all i know i lead a more morally correct life than most gay or straight ppl i know so wtf - i still dont feel like i have a right to judge. personally i think they have some unresolved issues and use this as a crutch to distract themselves. live and let live peoples.

GirlGoyle said...

Being a Christian is about having a good, caring heart and helping others. It's not about focusing on everyone else's sins. One should not throw stones if he lives in a glass house. We are all sinners. Every single one of us. Yet Dani is one to talk with her past. Whatever, these stupid, ignorant and judgemental people that hide behind Christ in order to point the finger at others just irk me. The bottom line is that we will all stand in judgment of God so what you do and who you are is between you and him. And I just do not see any relationship between homosexuality and religion. None at all. Ridiculous people hating ignoramuses should not be allowed near religious books so as to interpret scriptures to their advantage.

You love, therefore you are a good person. I for one know that personally I'm going to hell and I'm at peace with that. I've always liked warm weather. And hey...if you need me to reserve you a spot, let me know. I got connections of the horny kind...I mean with horns. Sheesh

Mad Maggot said...

I actually don't believe in God, but I respect all people who do because everyone's free to make their own choice when it comes to anything. Especially when it comes to love. Love is love and whoever says that "homosexual kind of love" is perverse has probably never truly loved. Love is not perverse, unlike hatred that mostly comes from unfulfillment and insecurities. Loved your post.

Mike said...

Oh the drama!!...I adore ya Fraggle and I'm sure God does too.

Since Dani has admitted to being in a relationship that God "condemned" in the past is she hellbound? She sounds like an ex smoker or alcoholic who now judges people on the things she used to do.

Very much the hypocrit herself.

Casually Me said...

IF she wants to save someone send her over to my blog, I am blogging again, lol. Homosexuality is a fine spectator sport, beats the hell out of Hockey. All jokes aside, you write in such a manner as to provoke thought, without anger. This is simply amazing considering the subject matter and how it gets some folks dander up.

Leesa said...

any comment I make will get lost in the deluge of comments already posted. Very interesting post, as usual, ~deb.

My question: is it more of a sin to have hot sex out of marriage if the guy is not that attractive? Or do you get a pass?

I think ranking sins is a dangerous thing.

Spectator said...

Tyler Dawbin sort of looks like one of those pedophiles they catch on Dateline. Really look at him! To even say such a thing is terrible. I bet you anything he just can’t get a good looking girl (or girl at all) because they all went lesbo after him.

Natalia said...

Oh and I must say that Dani woman makes me laugh so much...thanks for directing me to her website, Deb. I had not had such a laugh in such a long time. She is seriously warped and shows the true signs of being repressed and unhappy. She is the type of person that has made this country this zombie-like neverland that the rest of the world laughs at. I must say, the funniest thing is how she will never see the truth. Soooo sad...but at least she is getting some exposure to real life and what life should be from the rest of the posters.

-N

Tyler Dawbin said...

Ad Hominem attacks are always preferable to logical arguments...especially when you haven't one to make.

I only asked the question, and so far no one has answered it. Did God condemn child molestation in the Bible?

Dani said...

Deb -

No worries about offending me, I have come to expect that. In the same way you get criticized for being lesbian, I get criticized for have such radical views. Don't worry about being judgmental, it's okay. Judging is a good thing, unless you think we shouldn't judge, THEN DON'T JUDGE!

I wouldn't care so much if you were a lesbian, if you didn't also profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Saying I'm Christian and homosexual is an oxymoron and hypocrisy at it's best. You mock God and slap Him in the face when you prance around and openly live a sexually immoral life. What kind of message does that send to the world? You can follow Jesus and be a homosexual because we're all sinners and God doesn't really care what you do, so you can be as immoral as you want. Christ died for our sins, for sure - But not so we can keep on sinning!

And please quit calling me hateful! I don't hate you or anyone else. But I do hate the way you mock God!

Take a good look at your comments...where is all the hate coming from??? Who is it being dished out to??? Practically every single person on here is being judgmental of me and hateful towards me, what's up with that?

I am judgmental, yes it true - and proud of it. As a workman for Christ we are commanded to abhor what is evil. How can we abhor evil if we cannot even make a judgment about it? As the Apostle Paul wrote, “He who is spiritual JUDGES all things” for “we have the mind of Christ”.

Do you think child molesters are wrong? What about rapists or murderers? What about the brother and sister who have sex together or the mom and son who commit incest? They love each other and aren't hurting anyone, does that make it okay? Should you make a judgment about that? God says you should!

Just so I don't come across as holier than thou...in an email you asked, What is your sin? Well, I have a vulgar mouth sometimes, I'm selfish and neglect my kids to be on the computer, I have outbursts of anger at times and occasionally I smoke pot. Should I be doing those things? Probably not. Does it represent Christ well? NO. Would I encourage other people to do those things because God loves them anyway? Definitely NOT!

Are some of your friends going to make a judgment about me, GUARANTEED - they already have!

Sexual immorality is a grave sin and it has no place in God's kingdom. I tell you this in love, just like I told my brother who was sleeping with his girlfriend. Sex outside of marriage is wrong - period! Yes, I had a sexually promiscuous past - and it was wrong and destructive!

~Deb said...

Hi Tyler,

Well, I’ll try to answer that the best I could. Child molestation = rape = unwanted sex. Rape hurts. Loving another human being doesn’t. I think child molestation is quite evident that it’s evil. But I don’t believe that loving another person; a companion/life partner is a bad thing.

Does it hurt you that there are people out there that are in relationships of the same gender?

In the bible, I found this that may answer your question. It mainly deals with incest and

Do not have sexual intercourse with both a woman and her daughter or marry both a woman and her granddaughter, whether or son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter. They are close relatives, and to do this would be a horrible wickedness. Leviticus 18

There are plenty of people out there that are traumatized by being molested as a child. This is totally different from being in a relationship with someone you love with all your heart; someone you share your life with and someone you care about.

My relationship with my partner is a monogamous one. We are not promiscuous, nor do we engage in any other weird activities with other parties. It is a love between both her and I… In ‘my beliefs’, I don’t believe that hurts anyone else.

There’s isn’t an argument when two people are happy together in a relationship. It is not the same thing as child molestation, rape or incest.

I hope that I’ve answered your question—although I know you will definitely say I didn’t.

Thanks for your input!

~Deb said...

Hi Dani,

I do profess Jesus to be my Lord. I’m not sure why you think sinners can’t come to God. That’s kind of sad, don’t you think? That’s what Jesus wants us to do---to come to Him…

Saying “I’m a sinner and a Christian” is an oxymoron too! But God knows our hearts; He understands we are weak in our physical being. That’s why He came down to earth and died for you and for me. Be grateful.

Your sins are your own, I would never judge you. So you have a vulgar mouth and smoke pot once in a while—that’s your bag. Does it make you a bad person? No. Believe me, everyone has their own cross to bear. I don’t encourage people to be gay, but I can say that “I’m” gay, and that I’m very very happy with my girlfriend who I love! That doesn’t mean, “Hey guys! This gay stuff is great! Go out and do it!” No…

The reason why my friends and readers are a bit uptight about your comments is that you have displayed hate towards me and my gay friends, by saying, “At least I’m not a HOMO!” That’s sort of negative, isn’t it? I would never say, “Well at least I don’t curse like a truck driver or smoke pot!” Because I wouldn’t say that to you! That’s YOUR personal business. Not mine.

And whatever you did in the past…is just that. I’m glad that you are happy living your life as an ex-lesbian and now with a man that you’re ‘in love’ with.

Question… Are you “in love” with your husband? Or are you just playing a role for God to be a ‘good Christian’? I ask this for curiosity----NOT to make you feel bad. I’m just curious to know if you fell in love with your husband-----for “him”. Or are you just going through ‘the motions’?

Thanks for stopping by and letting me know how you feel Dani.

Mike said...

I visited Dani's blog and fought the urge to comment there. She wouldn't get it anyway.

Dani said...

I am very much "in love" with my husband. Being with women was unnatural and unfulfilling, much like other relationships outside of marriage. There is just something unique about being with a man that no woman could satisfy....can't put my finger on it, but you get the idea.

As I already told you in an email - Make no mistake, I was NOT 100% happy with the life I led before Christ. Technically, I don't know if you could have called me a true "lesbian" because I never was fully attracted to women in that way. I only started sleeping with women and having orgies because it was trendy and out of sheer boredom from my promiscuous lifestyle. I started having sex when I was 13 and slept with dozens of guys before I crossed over. But truthfully, there was no satisfaction with sex, one way or another.... Until I met my husband, who I am terribly "in love" with. He is my best friend, lover and partner for the rest of my life. We are crazy in love!

Seriously - I must pull myself away from the computer!

Have a good day!

Anonymous said...

Well...to be honest..I didn't bother to read all that nonsense because I think I've heard it all. And its hard to respond to this because Deb...from what I know you are very religious...and I on the other hand am not...but trying to take an unbiast stand point....

As far as Im concerned...if you are going by the standards of the Bible....we are all born into sin.
The Bible says incest is wrong...but yet we are all brother and sister...Adam and Eve right? So explain to me how that works. If we are all born into sin...what makes my sin any less than yours? A sin is a sin is a sin...

Do you think God looks at Gays/Lesbians any worse than he looks as adulturous husbands...or perverted men that take marriage and order mail order brides from Russia?

Do you believe that God will pick and chose sins? I can picture it now...
JUDGEMENT DAY:
GOD: MY SON...IN YOUR 49 YEARS OF LIFE...YOU HAVE MURDERED 3 WOMEN, MOLESTED NUMEROUS OF YOUR CHOIR BOYS, YOU WERE MARRIED TO 3 WOMEN ALL AT ONCE....AHH...BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE....IT SAYS YOU WERE SAVED! YES! WELCOME INTO THE GATES OF HEAVEN...

GOD TO THE GAY MAN: YOU HEATHEN! I SEE THAT YOU ADOPTED 3 STARVING CHILDREN FROM AFRICA! OH AND WHATS THIS? YOU DONATED MONEY TO AIDS AND BREAST CANCER RESEARCH! OH YOUR CHILDREN GREW UP TO BE PILARS IN THE COMMUNITY. BUT YOU ARE GAY! TO HELL YOU GO!

I mean really..come on people...get with it. god is a loving...life giving entity....and so stop with all the nonsense.

Tahkyia

Mike said...

Oh...and....when you decide to overcome this perversion in your life I'll welcome you into my arms with a big smile and a swanson dinner in the microwave...might even have a couple of candles lit on the dining table to spruce up the table since we'll be eating off paper plates and drinking moonshine outta styrofoam cups.

*snickers*

Anonymous said...

Well...to be honest..I didn't bother to read all that nonsense because I think I've heard it all. And its hard to respond to this because Deb...from what I know you are very religious...and I on the other hand am not...but trying to take an unbiast stand point....

As far as Im concerned...if you are going by the standards of the Bible....we are all born into sin.
The Bible says incest is wrong...but yet we are all brother and sister...Adam and Eve right? So explain to me how that works. If we are all born into sin...what makes my sin any less than yours? A sin is a sin is a sin...

Do you think God looks at Gays/Lesbians any worse than he looks as adulturous husbands...or perverted men that take marriage and order mail order brides from Russia?

Do you believe that God will pick and chose sins? I can picture it now...
JUDGEMENT DAY:
GOD: MY SON...IN YOUR 49 YEARS OF LIFE...YOU HAVE MURDERED 3 WOMEN, MOLESTED NUMEROUS OF YOUR CHOIR BOYS, YOU WERE MARRIED TO 3 WOMEN ALL AT ONCE....AHH...BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE....IT SAYS YOU WERE SAVED! YES! WELCOME INTO THE GATES OF HEAVEN...

GOD TO THE GAY MAN: YOU HEATHEN! I SEE THAT YOU ADOPTED 3 STARVING CHILDREN FROM AFRICA! OH AND WHATS THIS? YOU DONATED MONEY TO AIDS AND BREAST CANCER RESEARCH! OH YOUR CHILDREN GREW UP TO BE PILARS IN THE COMMUNITY. BUT YOU ARE GAY! TO HELL YOU GO!

I mean really..come on people...get with it. god is a loving...life giving entity....and so stop with all the nonsense.

Tahkyia

Miranda said...

This was on tylers blog:

"Anonymous said...
Heterosexuals, priests, ministers have all molested children....why is it that bible pushers always point out that it is just homosexuals?

People are people, there are good and bad no matter what, color, age, sexual preference, religion. Abuse happens no matter what sexual preferance people have.

There are alcoholics, drug addicts, murderers, rapists, pedophiles....there is a fifty/fifty chance that they are straight or gay.

this was his reply:

Tyler Dawbin said...
"There are alcoholics, drug addicts, murderers, rapists, pedophiles....there is a fifty/fifty chance that they are straight or gay."

50/50? Only 3% of the population is homosexual, if even that much, so if it's 50/50, there's a greater likelihood for a homosexual to be any of the above.

You said it, not me."

So, with all that said the 3% of the population are bad? Look at Charles Ng, Charles Manson, Wayco texas

So, Dani has admitted to stepping into the the lez lifestyle, and orgies. I wonder if Tyler had sex before he was married, ever swore or done anything bad.

On serial killers:
This was taken from http://www.unice.fr/mdl/uk_works/serialkillers.htm

Statistically, the serial killer is a white heterosexual male from a lower to middle class background, usually in his twenties or thirties. He is generally sexually dysfunctional and has low self-esteem. Some are very intelligent and have shown great promise as successful professionals. Most of them are married with children. They are also fascinated with the police and authority in general."

My g/f was molested by her 'heterosexual' uncle. Who are these people to sit here and judge?

Most people go through life, not ever have found their 'one'. Obviously Deb, you have found yours and are happy. As have I.

It's just a shame that all that happiness has to be shunned by all the homophbics in the world.

~Deb said...

Dani,

I am truly happy that you’re in a 'better place'. I'm happy you're in a loving relationship with your husband.

I am in a loving relationship with my partner, and it is very fulfilling! We do not perform in orgies or bring other parties into our relationship---it’s not a relationship of promiscuity and it’s not about sex. Why do some people think that all gays are full of promiscuity?

In fact, if my partner and I were to never have sex, I wouldn’t care. I would still be with her because she is my lifelong companion and best friend. There’s a huge difference when a relationship is based on sex and a relationship based on unconditional love...

Miranda said...

Unconditional love....that says it all. *hugs* There are people in the world that have never had that, or may never have it. It's to be cherished.

Pittchick said...

~deb obviously touched a nerve with this post. Well-written as always. I think this is why so many people question their faith at one time or another. I have been a Catholic my whole life and even attended Catholic school for 12 years. We were taught that the stories in the Bible were just that- stories. To illustrate a point in that time. I am still a practicing catholic, although I go in stages where I skip church for weeks at a time because I question my faith.
Yes, I believe in God, but I certainly don't agree with all the teachings of the Catholic church.
I don't see how you can be led to believe certain things are wrong in the eyes of the church when in your heart you know they're not.
Diversity is a part of life, as are change and adaptation to our surroundings. I can't even imagine how boring this world would be if everyone were the same and nobody brought anything new to the table.
Perhaps being judgemental is part of our nature, but at least it's a part that we can control. The only judge that I'm worried about is the one I encounter after I die.
No human being has the right to tell you that how you're living your life is wrong. You are obvioulsy a very thoughtful and caring person. It makes me so mad when so much close-mindedness is still prevalent in the world.

Ryan Charisma said...

Oh Deb,

You are a saint for even humoring Christian Activist Dani. She's "straight" from hell. I used to believe that your type of rebuttal worked best on Bible thumpers. Quote for Quote / Interpretation for Interpretation. But what I've learned is Christian zealots do NOT listen. I'm sure a lovely smack upside her head would get her attention. Now, I'm not one to be violent, but she's so special - she deserves it. I do NOT believe the Bible is anything but a bunch of fables. God did not write the Bible, it's absurd to even beleive that. The stories were passed on for hundreds of years (in another language), then written down by man (who may/may not have had his own agenda), edited by kings (to suit thier subjects needs), compiled with other religous writings (for inclusiveness), and translated (badly in some cases). So anyone (Green, Dani) who takes the Bible literally is a complete and total idiot. Oh, and I DO judge. I make no false pretenses about it. As, for Dani's children, I promise you one of two things will happen. Either they will turn out like her (a tragedy in today's world) or they will turn on her and hate their mother for being like the bigots who were against civil rights. Do NOT underestimate what media can do to inform children of equality.

Dani, you show no regard for others when you use words like faggot & homo. Believe me, if you used those words to me, in person, I would slap the taste out of your mouth so fast you wouldn't know what happend to you; regardless of you being a female. I will not stand for it. My dignity is worth the police report. Which, someday may become a new improved Bible. The slapping of the bich can be found at Ryan 2:6 in the New Improved Testiment.

Grace said...

Grrr... I'm kinda mad cause I wrote a really long comment for this post last night, but when I hit publish the page didn't load right and it all went down the drain.
Anyways, to summarize what my thoughts are on this situation: I think Dani should keep her opinions to herself. Unless God has sent her to earth as his representative, it is NOT HER PLACE to be placing judgments on others. A true Christian should devote their OWN life to God and concentrate on improving THEMSELVES, not spend their time putting others down and attacking their decisions. I find your words and actions here very un-Christian Dani. I've been a loyal reader of Deb's blog for months now and I feel nothing but love and respect for her... she's one of the most caring people I've ever associated with.
So seeing that you aren't a blessing sent directly from God, I would suggest that you only speak when you have something nice to say (it's the polite thing to do)... and if you are God-sent, then please forgive us all... we'll all pitch in to buy you a nice judge gown.

Dani said...

So Deb - You keep saying that we are all sinners and no one can judge, but you make a judgment that incest and rape are wrong because it "hurts."

What about the brother and sister who have sex together or the mom and son who commit incest? They love each other and aren't hurting anyone, does that make it okay? Should you make a judgment about that?

You use verses to point out that incest is wrong, but the same passages also say homosexuality is wrong. Are you also willing to admit that homosexuality is wrong? Or do you just pick and choose to justify your sin?

~Deb said...

Dani,

Incest and rape do hurt. Ask anyone who has experienced it. A brother or sister who has sex together or a mom and son who commit incest will affect them later on in their years. It’s traumatizing.

I’m not picking and choosing my sin. I’m simply stating that ALL of us are sinners. You are, as you admitted to your above sins…and I have no right to judge that.

What you are referring to as far as incest and rape is totally irrelevant and frankly ignorant on your part. I’m not trying to insult you, but you have absolutely no argument as to comparing the two together.

Loving someone of the same gender is not wrong. I have never…been so happy…in all my life…as I am with my beautiful girlfriend of 12 yrs. She makes me laugh, she makes me feel complete and she is my absolute best friend in the world. We vacation together, we have so many interests together, and we laugh together. We keep each other company—she is my companion and lifelong partner. We don’t hurt anybody. In fact, we share our love with others and invite them over for get togethers, have bbq’s and we always share ourselves with others—our friendship… We’re not bad people, and if you knew us, as my friends do, you’ll see that we’re not out to hurt you.

We’re harmless Dani. Yes, we love Jesus. My girlfriend and I pray together, we read the bible together and believe in Jesus.

I hope that you have just as good of a relationship like my partner and I have. For 12 whole years, she has been my absolute best friend in the world, as well as my lover. I am so happy I found her! She’s another believer in Christ and her relationship with God is a strong one.

Our church accepts us… We have many gay friends who are practicing Christians who are wonderful people who don’t’ “hurt people”.

There’s a big difference between incest and being in a loving caring relationship with a person of the same gender.

One day, you’ll see that we’re not bad people. We’re people who love. We’re people who share the sufferings of Christ…We’re people who are sinners—yes---but we’re also people who believe that Christ saved us.

No one can judge that…Only God can.

Thanks again for stopping by!


Thank you everyone who commented and made your honest opinions and beliefs on my comment section. I appreciate all your support and love that you've shown us. You're the best and I can't thank you enough for being 'human' and for being such caring individuals!

Tyler Dawbin said...

Deb, it's not in the Ten Commandments. Isn't that what you said about homosexuality, to say that it wasn't sin? Maybe that was someone else that said that...but I think you see my point. To say that something isn't sin, simply because it's not in the Ten Commandments, is dangerously naive.

By that reasoning, a person could justify beating their wife...and say that it isn't sin. See how dangerous the thinking is?

~Deb said...

Hi Tyler,

No, but hurting one another is a sin. What’s the golden rule? Treat others as you would want to be treated?

Beating up a person hurts. How does loving another person of the same gender hurt you? Think about it. It’s not hurting us, it’s not hurting people around us, and it’s certainly not hurting you.

I appreciate what you’re trying to say, and I understand your point of view, but you have to realize that the relationship that I’m in isn’t hurting anyone else… I’m not out to ‘get people’ because I love my beautiful girlfriend. Does that make sense?

Thanks again for stopping by Tyler!

Cheryl said...

Not that I am a theologian or anything but I think there are some flaws in Dani's argument. The first being that the New Testament does, in fact, say not to judge. Matthew chapter seven starts with "Judge not, lest ye be judged," and goes on to say that the manner in which you judge is how you will be judged. Also, Jesus didn't say anything in the book of Revelation. That book is John the apostle having a revelation from God. However, it is after Jesus ascended into Heave, after his time. Jesus isn't speaking there.

Anyone, including the devil, could twist the words of the bible to fit their agenda. In times of slavery, the abolitionists and the slave-owners both used the Bible to justify their causes.

Now, I also would have to add that God is love, Jesus is about salvation. The Good News that Christians spread is the Jesus dies for all people. If that is true, it's true for everyone. You don't have to earn God's grace, he gives it freely. I don't understand people who use any religion to spout hatred. Finally, I would point out that God is God, and if he didn't like any group of people--like homosexuals, or people of one race or anything, he wouldn't let them be any more. He's God. He could destroy them all, but he doesn't. And why? Cause God isn't about hate. God thought everything he created was good, and that includes all people.

Now I end this long-winded comment to say, I don't think any of us will change Dani's mind. And when I stop and think about it, that's just sad. She'll miss out on knowing some truly amazing people because of this.

~Deb said...

All boils down to...

Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, “Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,” when you can’t see past the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye. ~Matthew 7:5

Grant said...

"For others will treat you as you treat them." Except for assholes, who operate under their own set of laws.

I hope you're doing this for fun, because if you're trying to convince somebody of your point of view, pounding your head on the floor is just as effective and more entertaining.

- yours in Satan

Anonymous said...

An imposter caught in the wrath of a woman struggling with her own sins as a lesbian. A woman fornicating under what is artificial. A love that is dictated by religious people who say you have to love this type of person.

This woman is unhappy. This woman named Dani is extremely unhappy, or she wouldn’t be commenting back to you so much. This woman is still struggling with her sin of fornication with someone she does not love. That in itself is a sin. It’s awful when you are intimate with someone you do not love. You’re just with them for the mere sake that they’re from another gender. How sad. How awful for the children she has in her home that they have to endure the hate, the discriminative behavior of her parents.

God is watching her. God sees her actions. She will one day join God up in heaven, and he will say, “But I never knew you…”

Sad people. This makes me sad Deb. I’m in the closet myself because of judgmental people, but your relationship with Maddie makes me delightful. It gives me hope that there is true love out there. Thank you. And as for your book? Amazing. You don’t know how much you have helped me.

Your Canadian buddy

SCIA said...

Deb,
Where in the Old or New Testament is homosexuality advocated for?

Miranda said...

My post today is for you, and your amazing outlook on life. I agree with Anon. You're amazing, dont let anyone tell you different. (though I know you wont0 *hugs* Thank you.

~Deb said...

The Old Testament isn’t an advocate for anyone that believes that Jesus died for “all” of us for “all” of our sins. The New Testament is proven fact that if you love God with all your heart and believe that Jesus died for you on the cross---your sins are forgiven.

For people who do not believe in a religion or believe in another religion---who are we to judge? I don’t judge them…I accept them like Jesus did.

Again, reminder: WWJD? (What Would Jesus Do?)


Thank you Miranda. I will read that asap! I appreciate that! Love to you!!!

Mr. G said...

Deb - I found you thru my friend Miranda...just in time I think....

Religious finatics, be they Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddist or whatever all have one thing in common - they claim to love, but enspouse hate. All religion...any religion...asks of us is to believe in something(s)/somoene(s)greater than ourselves and to be good to each other...to love each other as we would be loved ourselves.

If you are in a committed relationship with someone who you love and who loves you in return...someone who is good to/for you and who you are good to/for...then it doesn't matter what anyone else has to say about who/what that person is.

To finally answer your question...yes, I believe that God is watching and that he does know your heart...so my advice (for what it's worth) is be who you are. Love who you love. Live the life before you...those with small minds and small hearts will never approve because they can't understand and for this and this alone they are irrelevant.

Shannon said...

Live and let live ... then let God sort the rest out....=)

~Deb, all I can say is, live your life to the fullest, do what makes you happy, you only get one shot!

We love you... be sure of that!

P.S. God loves you too (Incase you didn't know) =P

the Bleu Dog said...

Everyone has to believe in something. I do not fault or judge people by what they believe in and I don't expect anyone to judge me for my beliefs either.

"There is just something unique about being with a man that no woman could satisfy....can't put my finger on it, but you get the idea."

On it or in it you were still a "sinner" at one point.

Listen, Deb will tell you that I harbor some anger. (Sorry....I'm Sicilian), but it's attitudes like yours....attitudes of "what you're doing is wrong" that are then shouted out from every rooftop and forced upon everyone else that caused my friend to hang herself off her balcony. I don't go screaming at every gig I do to all the "breeders" that what they're doing is wrong. Why the hell do feel you can crucify everyone else. Are they forcing their opinion on you? Is anyone telling you you are wrong for who you have slept with. If they have...I am sorry, but just remember how crappy you felt when everyone was staring and pointing at and judging you.

What it boils down to is this. Religion is interpreted (like the laws of our country) differently by every one. You stick to people that share your beliefs and we'll stick to ours.

I think I speak for Deb as well as many others when I say your two cents, is welcomed. Everyone has the right to say what they want. But when you start digging at people ("Well at least I'm not a HOMO") you're just plain asking for it.

Out of respect for my friend, I am choosing kind words, I will post my own blog about this experience, using my own words and thoughts very soon.

Deb, mojitos and Karaoke. Is there a better way to end the day?
By the way...that whole thing about Child molestation, raping, drunkards and beastiality equating with homosexuality.... Does that make me the ultimate sinner because I am gay and enjoy doing my 6 month old donkey while twisted up on Tequila?

I love you!!!! (Not in the biblical sense of course)

Anonymous said...

LMAO - Bleu dog.

Panthertech said...

Deb,

I don't know you, but I am a friend of Bleu Dog. I have posted this comment on Dani's site, but I wanted you to have it as well.

Dani,

I would just like to start out by saying that I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ. I have been a Christian since 1995, so my opinions are not ones of a “young” Christian, nor are they of a “non” Christian. So let me address some parts of what you have said, and give you MY opinion:

“You said that you think "these ‘statistics’ are a bit off, because there are many heterosexuals that have had numerous partners…ie: prostitutes, people from broken homes, and other factors."
While I don’t know the details of all the statistics, generally speaking I believe the stats are fairly accurate. I will agree with you that many heterosexuals have had numerous partners because I was one of them, and I even contracted STD’s from male partners. I also crossed over into the homosexual lifestyle for a time and participated in orgies and other perversions. But, thankfully through Christ I have been freed from that sinful lifestyle and I am happily married with three children.”


You have had many partners, contracted STD’s, crossed over into the homosexual lifestyle for a time, and participated in orgies and other perversions. Well, that is definitely a testament to God’s saving grace “that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Congratulations on seeing the truth of the Lord and coming into the fold.


“Repeatedly, you said that you cannot judge, but Jesus says to “Judge with righteous judgment.” Time and time again Christians are commanded to judge, in fact, there is an entire book called Judges if you recall. Don’t get caught up in the cliche of “Do not judge” as it is not biblical. If you want to read further here is a great commentary => JUDGE RIGHTLY”

This is true, Jesus said “Judge with righteous judgement”. In Matthew 7:1-5(NKJV) he also said "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.”
So as I am sure (you being a good Christian and all), you know that you can find passages in the Bible to corroborate anything that you wish.

“Yes, we all sin, like you stated. We all have had impure thoughts, we have all said a white lie here and there, we have all idolized at one time or another; which is in the category of sinning. But, the Bible is clear about sexual immorality and it has no place in God’s kingdom.”

You are right…the Bible is clear about sexual immorality. Then you shouldn’t be going to God’s Kingdom either if that’s the way you look at it.

“You said, “If you have discernment, you should realize that the Old Testament is strictly for the time before Jesus. The Old Testament is a good tool for learning the past history of what went on in the beginning of time.”

The Apostle Paul says in 2 Timothy 3:16 -- “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.”

”You focussed heavily on OT verses in an attempt to justify living in sin with your partner, assuming the OT laws about homosexuality are no longer applicable. But, what do you have to say about the verses in the NT that clearly condemn homosexuality?”


What do you have to say about eating pork? Do you eat bacon, ham, pork chops, lamb??? The old testament speaks of not eating any animals that have cloven hooves, do you adhere to that as well? If you eat of these animals it is an abomination to God.


“I Corinthians 6:8-10 – “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

You left out John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

“If you truly love God with all your heart like you claim, you should REPENT of your perverted lifestyle and humbly go before God and seek forgiveness. I only say this to you in a spirit of love and respect, in hopes that you will see the Truth and no longer blaspheme the name of our LORD.”

Now Dani, basic fundamentals of belief, you don’t profess to know her heart do you? If she has accepted Jesus as her Savior, she is saved. In addition, think of all the “non”-believers that may read this. God gave us a commandment in Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. If I were a “non”-believer, I would think “Wow, I thought God loved us and sent his Son to die for our sins, but if I have to start acting like that, I think I’ll pass.

You must understand that to show the “unsaved” that they need Jesus, you have to be like Jesus. Example: Colossians 3:12-14 “Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility , meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.” You are not using meekness and humility when speaking the word of God, and quite frankly I am offended by it. I almost feel as if I should apologize publicly for all Christians because of your hate. Remember that you reap what you sow. If you sow discord and hatred, that will be what you reap in the end. Why not bash the Charismatics for speaking in tongues, or the Baptists for not? The bottom line is, you do not know this young lady’s heart, only she and God know that. You should not be speaking fire and brimstone out of your mouth but rather to remember that the “meek shall inherit the earth”.

Miss Ann Thrope said...

After all of this, I just want to say, I'd rather hang around with 10,000 open-minded perverts than 1 stick up her ass, bible thumping, fanatical zealot...who knows exactly WHAT and WHO everyone is...WHAT their sins are and whether or not they are right or wrong.

Deb, I'll tell ya, it's xtians (that's what I like to call them because you can't put Christ where Christ can't go) like her that make me happy I don't do organised religion.

I think she needs to remember, it's people like her who make people despise religion.....much as the good xtian Reverend Phelps who wanted to build a "memorial" to Matthew Shepard...

"MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22."

Yep, there's some walking in Jesus' shoes if I ever saw it.

A person can call themselves Christian...but lots of them are really xtians. There is no Christ in their religion.

And, as a formerly religious person, I still know my bible:

Mat 7:1-5

-Judge not, that ye be not judged.
-For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
-And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
-Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam in thine own eye?
-Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

joey♥ said...

bravo, deb, for your honesty and understanding. if i was you, i don't know if i would have been as nice to that lady. your argument is so much clearer, concise, and sound that her letter seems like a bunch of b.s.

SCIA said...

Deb,

You said:

"The New Testament is proven fact that if you love God with all your heart and believe that Jesus died for you on the cross---your sins are forgiven."

So, if you continue to engage in sexual immorality, in this case homosexuality, in which the bible speaks out against continuously, you therefore have a "license" to continue your immoral behavior?

By not rebutting my question of ‘where in the Old and New Testament is it said that homosexuality is advocated for’, I will assume that you cannot and therefore agree with my central premise and conclusion that there are no passages to back up your behavior.

Jesus does love you Deb, but he does not agree with your sexual behavior. Seek the Lord and he will forgive you, but do not continue your actions.

WE must give it ALL up to follow the true word of Christ.

In Him
SCIA

green said...

~deb: for clarification- I didn't see anything IN HER POST that was hateful, just her interpretation of scripture.

The homo comment that she made in the comments section was indeed uncalled for, and I'm surprised you didn't moderate that one right out of the comments section...

Monica said...

Ohhhhh....anonymous--that is not right. Not as a joke, not as a suggestion, not at all.

Hugs for Deb (and for Dani, who probably needs one even more, but can't admit it)
-going to make a cocktail now-

green said...

This is in response to RYAN:

You think I am a total idiot for taking the Bible literally? Based on this one comment I made you are making a blanket statement about me that is so wrong. Personally I think it is foolish to not take the Bible literally but hey that's your choice how you interpret it or not. So I ask you this, why wouldn't you take it literally? DO you believe the Bible is just allegory? I'm just curious.

This response is to CHERYL:

You need to re-read Revelation, starting with 1:1. The whole book is the revelation of Jesus Christ TO John (as a representative of all Christians). Primarily chapters 2-3 are what JESUS said to John regarding the seven (types) of churches.

Dani said...

Thanks to Green for backing me up on this (except on the homo thing. But if Deb took that out, she should take all of the nasty insults and threats towards me too. Don’t want to be unfair, now do we?) It is definitely encouraging to know that other believers can actually interpret Scripture correctly.

Hi Deb - I just wanted to say thinks again for giving me the platform to speak on your blog. My intention was not to stir up so much strife with everyone, but I'll admit, it sure made for a fun discussion. Even if most everyone was opposed to me - I enjoyed it.

Anyway, we have beaten this issue over the head enough so there is no need for me to keep carrying on and on. While I can certainly judge your actions, only God knows your heart. Ultimately, in the end you are accountable only to Him.

I sincerely wish the best for you, and I hope that you seek to honor God in all that you do. I will do the same, and I'll work on being more "loving" towards others.

In Christ ~ Dani

P.S. Monica - I'll always take a hug..and a cocktail too!

Dani said...

Deb - That's "THANKS" again. Not "thinks" -- Gotta love typos.

Anonymous said...

There is a publication by the group Soulforce, called "What the Bible Says and Doesn't Say about Homosexuality" that has been helpful for me in interpreting and understanding Biblical scripture that refers to homosexuality.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

I think it provides some good context and raises important points about the assumption that are made about the Bible.

Take care and best wishes, L.

~Deb said...

Scia, it’s a proven fact that while we live in our carnal shells, we will constantly sin. Our physical nature vs. our spirit is always at battle. So if I stop living with my partner who I love with all my heart, another sin will be waiting in the wings…. For example, a white lie, a gossipy story to a good friend, a drink too many, saying the Lord’s name in vain (which is on the top ten list in Ten Commandments) or even thinking an impure thought. We’re constantly at battle; which is why we are saved through the blood of Christ.

Relax.

Breathe.

Enjoy an extra glass of wine.

Or two.

Or three...

And so on....

Green, are we reading two different things here? You’re saying there was nothing hateful about Dani’s post, and then asking me why I didn’t moderate her comments when she said, “At least I’m not a HOMO!” ??? I’m confused. But maybe that’s my interpretation. My bad.

Dani, I NEVER made a nasty insult or threat towards you----ever in my entire comment section. If you see one, please point that out to me. I seriously think you have two sides to you that are alarming. You have a nice side (yes I said nice) and you have this vindictive hateful side which is quite evident---to all who have seen what you had to say. Yes, I said hateful. BUT----only God knows your heart, and in the end…you are accountable. So I give you back your own words.

I thank you for participating in my circus of comments, and it has been a lot of fun bantering back and forth with you regarding religion & interpretation.

God bless!

Now where’s my cocktail???

~Deb said...

And by the way, that comment made by “anonymous” WAS just wrong. I don’t know why I let that slip by. I try to give everybody a chance to speak whatever’s on their mind—but that had to be deleted. That was awful. Sorry about that. Should have caught that one sooner! I apologize if anybody took offense to him/her. The moderation operator was hitting the sauce apparently.

Sugar said...

OMG.....your comment box is positively brimming...just popping over from Miranda's to give you a smile. I am neither a Christian or Gay but believe whole heartedly in wot you have to see, there are too many 'judges' out there, too many people not willing to see beyond labels and predjudices...underneath it all we are all flesh and bone. How can it be a sin to love?

Caraf said...

i think jesus's whole message was about love being above all else.

if the one you love came to you in a man's body, a woman's body, or no body, or some other body... it wouldnt make any difference. youd love him/her anyway in every possible way....

those people who call themselves heterosexual are so because their beloved hasnt come to them in a same-sex body....

Saur♥Kraut said...

Whew! Well, first of all let me preface what I'm going to say by saying that I consider you to truly be a friend of mine. I'll come up there and party with you guys any day!

But if you were a catburglar, I'd still say "Ahem, Deb, I love ya and all that, but this catburglar stuff? You're really not living according to scripture."

Let me quickly add that *I* am living with my boyfriend. So *I* am not living according to scripture.

But this discussion revolves around the Christian faith, so I am answering you in accordance to that faith. If you were Buddhist, it wouldn't be pertinent and you wouldn't be dealing with this.

Re-read Dani's letter. It didn't seem to be filled with hatred (unless I missed something). She simply told you what she felt was the truth.

Here's the sticky part: she's 100% correct from a theological standpoint, and I speak authoritatively as a scholar.

NOTE: I am not choosing sides, I like you. You are witty, truthful, funny, interesting and engaging. I am just compelled to speak honestly, here. I don't wish this to damage our friendship!!!

But I also have to say that you are wrong when you say that homosexuality is left out of the 10 Commandments. You see - the Jews of that time and the Christians of the New Testament, both knew that the 10 Commandments weren't the only laws they had to obey. These were just the primary ones; the opening salvo, you could say. And as for the 7 Deadly Sins, that was a Roman Catholic construction which was a convenient way to remind people of what the RCs thought were the worst sins in the Bible. There's nowhere in the Bible that anyone says "Hey! Didja know there are 7 sins that are worse than the others?"

However, there are obviously sins that range from bad to worse. After all, not all sins got the death penalty. Homosexuality did. But most Christians today feel that Jesus would never have sanctioned such OT standards, I need to add!

You're also right that your sin is not as bad as many others. That doesn't mean that you and I aren't sinning, according to Biblical standards. (And people wonder why I'm so tortured by introspection!)

Finally, Dani is correct about judging with righteous judgment. The only argument that you might make is that her judgment may not be a righteous one. I don't know anything about her, so I can't make that call either way. The Bible IS very specific that you can't judge someone else for the same sin which YOU are committing. But she may get a pass as she's not actively bi-sexual or gay.

Here's what is really interesting: This goes to the heart of the question "What is salvation"? Is it simply a belief that Jesus is the Son of God? Apparently NOT, since James 2:19 says "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. So it looks like, if a Christian truly believes, they make a strong attempt to follow all the rules and laws of the Bible. It could also mean that faith is truly tied to works. This is a debate which has gone on for centuries, and won't be resolved here. But it's of great interest to me.

SCIA said...

You therefore have a "license" to continue your immoral behavior?

We must give it all up, Deb, to follow in the footsteps of Christ.

You, as well as I, will be judged not thru our actions but what our hearts focus on.

I commit adultery if I either sleep with another women outside of my marriage or if I look at another women in lust.

We must give it all up to follow Christ. There are no "if's" or "but's" in the bible. You either follow it verbatim or you don't and therefore Christ will judge you if you do not.

Homosexuality is a sin just like saying the Lord's name in vain but that does not mean you can pray for the Lord's forgiveness and then either continue to engage in your sexual desires or use the Lord's name in vain.

I am sure Christ will forgive you for "telling a white-lie" by leaving your partner and leading a life in Him. Your telling your partner this "lie" is not a sin, your continuing your lifestyle is.

In Him
SCIA

~Deb said...

Saur, it wasn’t her letter so much than the comments left about being a HOMO and then if you shoot over to her website, she clearly states that she’s a homophobic and uses slang words such faggot, homos and other discriminating hurtful words. Also, she claims that my sin is just as bad as incest or rape. Do you think so? The end of her letter she calls my lifestyle ‘perverted’. To me—those words aren't positive ones, whether you’re a theologian or not.

A sin is a sin---no matter what. No one has the right to judge---whether or not you are committing the same sin or not. This is what I believe and what I have read in the bible as well. Where in the bible does it say that if you are not committing the “same exact” sin, then you have the right to judge another human being?

Salvation is just that---believing that God brought His only son to die for us on the cross. That is the base and foundation of Christianity. Not judging others and which sin is better than another.

No sin is greater than another—unless you go according by Catholicism.

Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. But you are not a judge who can decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor? ~James 4:11-12

Saur, I do appreciate your comment and I respect your beliefs. I’m just trying to explain why I feel this way, and why I feel the need to defend myself with this topic. The bible clearly states that we are to love one another and we are NOT to judge one another. No one is “righteous” above another person. No sin is greater than another. It says this in the bible.

I would love for you to explain to me or show me ‘where’ it says that homosexuality is a sin “IN” the Ten Commandments. I didn’t see it there----and if anyone else saw it, please guide me.

However, even if it is a sin, that doesn’t make it a right for someone else to judge, just like I cannot judge you for your lifestyle, or judge Dani for hers. I have absolutely no right to sit here and call out people’s sins. It’s not Christ-like and it’s certainly not what God wants us to do.

My beliefs? We should leave it in God’s hands. We’re better off that way.

Thanks Saur----and NO NO NO---our friendship would NEVER be ruined because of a debate…It would only enhance it my dear! A martini will be waiting for you when you arrive! This only makes me like ya more!

LisaBinDaCity said...

Do you know more wars are fought in the name of religion than any other reason?

Love ya Deb.

~Deb said...

Scia, I guess we all have different beliefs and there are so many different sectors of Christianity that can go on and on and on… As Lisa said above, most wars are over religion and different beliefs.

Leaving my partner that I love and adore to be unhappy without her would be a “lie”…. Living my life without her or with someone else would be a lie as well.

Do you know how many people convert and become ‘ex-homosexuals’ and live a lie just to “please God” because people in the church told them to?

I have these two lady friends who have been together for 25 yrs. They’re both in a church we used to attend and were in a ministry for lesbians. (Not a fun group people!) Anyway, they got up on stage to tell their story and how they overcame the guilt and shame of being in a homosexual lifestyle. They were told time and time again, “We love the sinner, but not the sin…” The pastor also advised them that they could still live together, but in a celibate relationship.

After the one lady told her testimony, she burst out in tears and said she couldn’t live like this. She was unhappy for the last five years of her life living a ‘lie’. Her partner cried even harder. These two ladies were tortured by what other people told them to do; tortured by the judgments made in the church.

I don’t want to be like those two ladies denying my happiness because some ‘human’ told me it was wrong.

I have a personal relationship with Jesus that let’s me to believe---not even believe----to “know” that I’m okay…and that all my fellow gay and lesbian friends are “okay” as well. We don’t hurt people. We are not the same as rapist or murders. We are not in an incest relationship as it has been compared in the above comments, Scia.

Our intentions aren’t evil. We don’t have an agenda—other to love another person of the same sex.

It’s amazing how a lot of these ‘born again Christians’ and extremists only focus on homosexuality. It even sometimes makes me think, “Why? Are they struggling with this issue to debate it so much?” I’m just curious to know why so many extremists are so angry at us. Shouldn’t you be more upset over a person who murdered someone? Or a man who took advantage of a little 5 yr old boy? I mean, things like that are done with evil intentions.

Christ lives in my heart, and lives in my partner’s---as well as yours. I do believe your motives are in the right place, Scia, but there are much different beliefs. I guess that’s what it boils down to. We can argue about this all day—and still come up with different things.

Thank you for your input. I do appreciate it.

the voice said...

I am going to make one last comment. First, I an not gay and I have not participated in any orgies. I am, though, a Christian who gets a little irked by people who not only "rate" sin, but spend their time pointing out others, instead of working on their own. To single out homosexuality over all other sin is a farce. If you use the "laws" in Leviticus, wearing a garment of two different fabrics was a sin. Huhhh? And for those who say that homosexuals "choose" to live in sin, I say that every time you sin, you choose to do so yourself. There is absolutely no difference. Christianity is not supposed to be about noticing the flaws in others, but about the ones in ourselves. God bless each of you, Ken

Miranda said...

So true Deb, there are worse things you could be doing....these people tend to forget that I think. They cant seem to 'save' the murderers, rapists, pedophiles...so maybe gay people are an easy target. I dunno.

Me, well I have people that I love, having issues with my relationship. ANd thats what I tell them, I could be out skanking and drinking every night, with a ton of different guys. I could find someone else, a man. I could stay out of a relationship forever. But I wont, I love her too much. And as hard as this whole l/d thing is, we've enough of a battle with immigration, let alone close minded people on my preference for a partner.

The Stevo in H-Town said...

I alwayz figger "Booty iz in the eye of the beholder"...

Dani said...

Deb – Just to clarify, I didn’t mean that you were saying nasty insults and threats to me, but many of your friends did. And I don’t use the word faggot either. I made one reference in a post that the word ‘homo’ is better than ‘faggot’ I suppose, because I refuse to use the word ‘gay’ when referring to homosexuals. But that’s beside the point. I'm not hateful, nor do I hate homosexuals, like you so many times made a judgment about. If a adulterer or a child molester or a rapist or a fornicator had a blog where they openly professed to be a Neurotic Christian "________" - I would be over at their place telling them the same thing.

Remember the part in the Bible where Jesus says we should die to our flesh? Continuing to live in sin just so you can be "happy" is selfish and down right disgraceful to Christianity.

================

On to another hot topic...

“Do Not Judge” – That is probably one of the biggest clichés that Christians have tangled them selves up in. It is probably one of the most popular quotes that Christians and non-Christians alike use today so they won't be judged for their sin. Yet, it is the verse that is most consistently taken out of context.

Matt. 7:1 says, “Do not judge so that you will not be judged” – yes we all know that part. But when you keep reading, you find that Jesus says - “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” When we repent of our sin, take the log out of our own eye, then we can see clearly to judge.

Jesus said, “Do not judge…you hypocrite.” I cannot tell a homosexual that their lifestyle is destructive if I too am homosexual. But since I am not, I won’t be a hypocrite in telling them that.

Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they “judge with righteous judgment” and He praised a man who “rightly judged.”

The Apostle Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to “judge the smallest matters.” As the Apostle wrote, “He who is spiritual judges all things” for “we have the mind of Christ.” (1 Cor. 2:15-16)

1 Corinthians 6:2-5 : “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?”

Jesus said in Luke 12:56-57 - “Hypocrites! …Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right?”

Jesus also said in John 7:24 - “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

God warns against “hypocrisy” commanding men to “abhor what is evil” (Rom. 12:9). Yet to abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. Thus, unable to judge, large numbers of Christians become hypocrites by obeying the Hypocrites Golden Rule. Since the hypocrite doesn’t want to be judged, he judges not, as Jesus said, “Judge not… you hypocrite” For “judge not” (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged” (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged. “Judge Not” is the Hypocritical Oath.

~Deb said...

1 Corinthians 6:2-5 : “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?”

You took that out of context --because that only deals with "Avoiding Lawsuits with Christians". This has nothing to do with sins or being homosexual or judging someone for how they disgraced God. This is all legal matters. Read up on that chapter.

If you're going to use scriptures, please read the entire passage before referring it to 'sin and homosexuality'. It has nothing to do with what we're speaking of.

But I appreciate the comment Dani!

Cheryl said...

Wow Deb! Lots of comments.

I want to concede my point on Revelation. The truth is, I read it in sixth grade...and have no plans to read it in the future so, green, I concede.

I wanted to say something about the seven deadly sins, they aren't in the Bible. From what I learned in my college theology class, they're a theory constructed by someone (I forgot who) and technically they aren't more severe, they are the fountainhead to other sins. So in other words: anger, envy, lust and the rest are what lead us to commit sins. That is what makes them dangerous.

In then end, I go by the general concept of: love the sinner, hate the sin. Regardless of what anyone thinks of your actions, love and acceptance are always in order.

I know that I can talk until I am blue in the face and not change people's minds. And that's ok. They're entitled to they're opinions and in the end it's about each person and God. But I honestly believe we'll all be surprised some day when we discover "truth."

Miss Ann Thrope said...

totally off topic...but what's up with the popups going on here?

texasshiva said...

From this day forward, I'm gonna ask people why they chose to be heterosexual...since it's a choice and all.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Deb, *whew* Cuz you know I love ya, girl.

she’s a homophobic and uses slang words such faggot, homos and other discriminating hurtful words. Also, she claims that my sin is just as bad as incest or rape. Do you think so?

GOD no! I hadn't gone to her site. If that's the case, you're dealing with a powerful amount of hatred.

As for the judging, go to Matt 7:1-5 ... in fact, here it is in the New American Standard Version:

1"(A)Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and (B)by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you (C)look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4"(D)Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.


See vs. 2? It says "By your standard of measure..." So it's hypocritical to judge someone by the same sin you commit. But I will say that overall, it is saying simply "stop being so eager to judge"!!!

There ARE greater and lesser sins, or all penalties would be the same. (I'm not Catholic, as you know). However, they are still all SINS and even the littlest sin is seen as foul by God (or so it says in the Bible). So there are less foul and more foul sins. But that doesn't mean that the little ones should be ignored! As I've often said, I want to go to the church that preaches about the sin of gluttony!!!

I hope to get up to NY this year. Why don't YOU guys come to Florida for a visit? I know some GREAT spots and I'll be tour guide!!!

An American in Melbourne said...

OK. Breathe in. Breathe out.

Even skipping a few of the longer posts, it took me quite some time to get through all these comments (I also read a bit of Dani's blog, since she it seems has been reading mine - fair is fair).

Deb, it sounds like you know what's right in your heart. Go with that.

I learned a while back that you can't argue with hateful, closed minded people - and dani defintiely comes across as hateful and closed minded. I love a good debate with people from different viewpoints (and as a bisexual atheist, i think my views might be the same as yours on a few matters, quite different on others), but you can't waste your time and energy banging your head against a wall without getting hurt.

That's my take on things anyways.

The Stevo in H-Town said...

Debates and arguments usually fall inna category of "right" or "wrong"...The ownership of those two words becomes more important than "understanding"...We're all right, and were all wrong..I THINK I'm right about that..(heh-heh)...

Dani said...

Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

God commands us to Him and to love your neighbor as yourself. If I was doing something destructive and sinful, I would hope fellow believers would love me enough to confront me, and love God enough to stand up for righteousness.

When I was living together and having sex with my husband before we were married, we sure were thankful for those who loved us enough to tell us we were wrong. Sure, we loved each other deeply and were committed to our relationship, but we loved the Lord more and wanted to be obedient towards Him. The Lord convicted our hearts and we moved out and lived separately until we got married. Since then, God has poured out His blessings on us, and used us to glorify His Name and warn others of the destruction of sexual immorality.

Doesn’t real love require us to confront each other if we saw that they were sinning, hurting themselves, and blaspheming the name of the LORD?

Yes, God is love. But God is also Just, Holy and Righteous.

My interpretation of Scripture is predictably received as hate to those who reject the Truth in God’s Word. You and your gay pals preach - “love,” “tolerance” and “don’t judge,” but everyone seemed extremely intolerant and judgmental of me and my views. Where’s the love there? You called me hateful and angry because my worldview happens to align with the Bible when I say homosexuality is a SIN. You and your friends repeatedly made harsh insults towards me, false accusations, threats, and judgments about my heart and motives, for which you know nothing about.

DON’T BE A HYPOCRITE!!!

*Remember – “If you treat one of his children with hatred---whether being judgmental or criticizing one another; it’s still looked down upon by God.”

Indeed, I made one harsh statement about not being a HOMO, but it pales in comparison to the “lack of love” that was displayed from everyone towards me.

=======================

Speaking of LOVE – let’s put your “love” to the test…

According to you, we should love and respect everyone regardless. Never judge anyone for anything, no matter what the circumstance, right? After all, we are all sinners, and it matters not to God what sin you commit, because all sins are the same in God’s eyes. Besides, only God can be the Judge.

What if someone kidnapped, raped and murdered your girlfriend? Do you really love and respect that person for what he did? Would you judge that person and say it was wrong?

What about the Catholic priests who molests and sodomized young boys? Would you judge them? Do you respect what he does as a leader of the Catholic church?

What about a mother and her adult son, or a brother and sister who love each other and have monogamous sex together? Is that wrong?

What about a drug dealer who hangs around a school playground and sells drug to small children? Do you love and respect what he does? Would you tell him it was wrong?

What about a bunch of angry protesters who speak out against homosexuality and perversion? Do you judge them or condemn what they do?

How can you be "walking in love" with righteous judgment?

Anonymous said...

Interesting points Deb. I shall join the debate soon.

I am new to the blogisphere and I am starting my own site. I am having trouble with one thing though. How did you get your graphics at the top of your page to be there? What part of the template should I focus on to insert my graphic 'code' http:// ect?

In need of a quick fix.

Thanks

KB said...

Deb--I found you through CP's mention of Dani's site. So ultimately you have CP to blame for sending me to Dani's, which is where I found you. Oh. My. God. I'm rambling.

Anyway. To the point.

I think you're a B-E-A-utiful woman, and I think your choices are just that--your choices. I love that you know who you are, and you're proud to be that person.

I know you don't need me telling you this, but people like Dani are unfortunate. They will probably never know some really amazing people because they let things like sexual preference etc. dictate with whom they associate.

Screw her. You're great, your blog is great, and that's all that matters.

Mistress Tomtayoh said...

Dear Dani,

I would politey like to say, piss off.

Have a nice day!

ok... I didn't read the whole thing but the part about no room in his kingdom was enough. ugh. disgusting. i am christian too you see. "god so loved the world he gave is one and only son".... he LOVES THE WORLD every single part of it. He does not discriminate. What are the churches teaching??? Honestly? I go to christan camps every summer and I learn so much. Everyone there gives off a feeling of love... that is how it should be. Not bad looks, mean jokes, and teasing. *sigh* It's good to know some people (recalling other comments) have a, what I believe, to be a realisitc outlook on things.

Thane said...

Deb,

I'm not going to get into the 'this is right' and 'this is wrong' blah blah blah as far as the bible goes. But, take anything that weird-minded girl says with a pound of salt. Sorry, but she does not represent Christianity... only her own narrow opinions and ego.

Dani quotes John 14:15 - Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” Unfortunately, she forgot about John 15:10 and 15:12... where Jesus tells us his commandment!

People can blather about their personal doctrines all they want. Deb's doctrine will not get her into heaven any more than mine will. God will separate the sheep from the goats on judgement day. You see, there is one main commandment that Jesus gave: love them as I have loved you. The minute you find yourself in the midst of a poor, hateful attitude (given in Christian love, as they say), keep in mind that the person who attacks you does so out of a false sense of ego and pride. They wish to put you down to make themselves look more 'Christian'. They believe their doctrines will get them Salvation, and they forget that Jesus is the key. They put doctrine in God's place and judge everyone but themselves. They forget to show mercy and love, as they were instructed to do by Christ. Yes, we are to 'hate' perceived sins, but we are never to hate or mock the sinner.

It doesn't matter to me if you are Christian or not, or if you are gay or straight. I don't care if you are a wonderful ballet dancer, or an ax murderer. The point is, as a Christian, I know that my God loves you, and therefor so should I. We don't have to agree on anything... because in the end, all that matters is love. If a person doesn't believe in God, that doesn't mean they won't believe in 10 or 20 years. And, if a person professes to be Christian, they might not be in 10 or 20 years! So, who can say who is and isn't worthy of Salvation or heaven? Not me, not you, not Dani... only God. :)

I feel that Dani 'missed the mark' on what she thinks righteous judgement is.

Cheers!

None333333 said...

I think you are making the mistake of using concepts like Christ's love and non-judgement to rationalize sin.

Jesus loves us all but his promise is to deliver us from sin. He can help us get free of sin. It's not about continuing in one's sin and using God's love and grace to rationalize it. This includes the sins of fornication and adultery committed by 'straight' people.

There is plenty of scripture on the dangers of sexual sin (not just one type vs another). And no, we're not to point fingers at others while rationalizing our own sin. But sin is still sin and it equates to spiritual death for everyone in its throes.

A loving God convicts us of our sins through our own consciousness and through his Word. At that point we have a choice to repent and experience deliverance or tune God out in favor of what we want to do. That is the classic battle of the spirit vs. the flesh.

That said, a lot of Christians fail miserably when dealing with the issue of homosexuality. Snide name calling, contempt and snickering have no place in the heart of Christ. But the failings of individuals aside, it's really a matter of the Word of God vs. personal opinion. A lot of people have argued about the scriptures concerning this issue but ultimately we will be accountable to God alone.

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

I believe that homosexuality is a perversion. From a Christian background it clearly states in the bible that homosexuality is a sin. But also I found out recenting that in Buddhism, that there is Yin and Yang, or balance, of male and female. Therefore homosexuality is against such a balance. I found out that in Hinduism also, that purity and cleaniness, not lust of the body is important. For a non-religious point of view, I think that the word 'gay' has been preverted, it used to mean a word like 'joy', but how has become associated with a digusting, unclean sexual practice.

~Deb said...

What about premarital heterosexual acts?

You focus on the 'sexual acts', but yet you don't judge the premarital acts of straight people. Interesting.

Being gay is not perverted. Being promiscuous is. Loving someone of the same sex is not seen as perverted.

A "balance" is two people having mutual feelings for one another.

Anonymous said...

Deb,

I feel sorry for you. Obviously every response you gave is just evasion. You try to say that the person who condemns your sin is hating you, an obvious fallacy. Condemning the sin doesn't mean hating the sinner. If you love someone you will condemn what hurts them, and sin kills the life of grace in the soul.

You make all of these evasive statements like "why are you so focused on this" and "at least I'm not doing that" and "what about sins committed by heterosexuals". None of these things address the central point, which is the clear and repeated condemnation by the New and Old Testaments of sodomy.

Yes, heterosexuals commit sins too, and they too will burn in everlasting torment if they die unrepentant of a mortal sin (one serious enough to constitute an outright rejection of God, like fornication). Yes, there are worse sins than sodomy, but so what? Murder is worse than theft, so it's not a sin?

You really need to face the fact: you are living in an evil, immoral relationship, and at the same time wanting to call yourself a Christian. The two are not compatible.

I hope and pray that you will do what is best for yourself and STOP sinning. I was a fornicator for many years and committed other sexual sins. I could have said to myself "I can't help it, I was born that way", but by the grace and mercy of God I did not do that. I would be miserable, confused, and lost today, like you are, if I had taken the other road. I want you to be happy, and I want you to go to heaven. Do the right thing and confront your psychological problem, which is what this is, and your refusal to repent. If you pray for help from God, as I had to do as well, He will hear you and he will respond!

In Christ,
Matthew

Anonymous said...

Excellent, love it! http://www.acne-treatment-5.info/Proactiv-aposs-refining-mask-compared-with-another-product.html No fees payday loans garden of life supplements refinancing Ohio state spring football game http://www.air-flow-wheelchair-cushion.info/acne-cure-free.html

Anonymous said...

Jesus said:

"If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
He that hateth me hateth my Father also." John 15:19-24

I am allowing Him to speak for Himself and the readers can decide what Jesus would say in this debate.

~Deb said...

"...but now they have no cloak for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also."

That was meant for the people who didn't believe in the Father, and didn't believe that Jesus was the son of man. Sorry, your argument still does not hold up.

Where does Jesus say that homosexuality between a couple is a sin?

Leviticus----OLD LAW.

Corinthians states that we are no longer bound to the sin- that we are freed by the blood of Christ.

Romans implies that they were promiscuous- they clearly state that fact.

Promiscuity is a sin, not loving someone of the same gender. But thanks for your comment, anonymous.

Anonymous said...

I didn't say who was sinning. Your assumption was that I was referring to homosexuals. It is up to you, as a Christian, to stand before God with your case on that matter. As long as you are completely confident that you are in line with His Word then it is not my business to judge you. Nor is it your business to judge me for what you THINK I was saying.

As I said, Let Jesus (i.e. the Word) speak for Himself. You will find out whether He regards it as a sin from His Word - not me.

~Deb said...

Dear Anonymous: This post clearly deals with the question of 'is homosexuality a perversion', so yes, I "assumed" that you were referring to that.

But as you explained, yes, I agree with you 110% now that you've said that in your own words, that Jesus speaks for Himself. The Bible (The Word) clearly states that promiscuity is a sin, not homosexuality.

Thanks for stopping by!

~Deb said...

Mr. UK Anonymous,

If you didn't type in the search words, "homosexuality & perversion", maybe I wouldn't have assumed where you were going with your comment.

Again, I appreciate your input, but since seeing where you came from by your search words, you obviously said a lot right there.

:o)

Amy said...

Anonymous:

It is a massive load of crap to claim you aren't saying Deb and homosexuals are sinning. That is exactly the context of your comments. Just because you didn't type it doesn't mean squat. You said it figuratively, don't try to hide between the lines here.

Just spit it out next time. You'll get so much more respect - even from those who disagree with you.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks!'

Anonymous commentors, why do you hide in the shadows - or is it the closet - of anonimity? Do you think it makes you cool, or that what you say will have more of an impact?

To me, it says you are incognizant of the world beyond your front door. If you haven't gone beyond your comfort zone, then it is possible you are afraid of what is out there. It implies that you are afraid of the unknown and that you don't fully accept everything and everyone that God has created. You want the world to fit neatly into your own personal mental image of perfection (which will never be achieved here on earth).

All you people who keep insisting that two people of the same gender who love each other are "evil" and "miserable" and "confused and lost" want one thing:

Heterosexual domination.

Straight Supremacism.

How generic.

Anti-gay people want gays and lesbians to be straight. Unlike gays and lesbians, who you claim prey upon your children to try to change them, you are preying upon us and are consistently trying to come up with ridiculous new "therapies" that you think will "fix" us. You want everyone to be the same as you because you fear anything that makes you uncomfortable.

Through tactics of intimidation, cruelty, violence, abuse, manipulation, and judgement (you do it "with love" no matter how much you deny it) homophobes are forcing innocent people to stay in the closet and deny who they are as God created them.

Sadly, it isn't realized that the most harmful delinquencies incurred on gays and lesbians, come from the millions of ingnorant heterosexuals who don't understand what they don't bother to learn about.

The reuslts of your efforts?

Depression.
Destroyed relationships and self-confidence.

Beatings.

Murder.

This is a hunt against homosexuals by a supposedly 'moral' people.

This has happened before during The Spanish Inquisition and The Holocaust.

Both the Church and the Nazis believed they were acting in good faith.

Oh, and FYI:
The scripture you are posting quotes Jesus encouraging the people who were being persecuted and oppressed for their belief in Jesus!

That scripture stand only to re-inforce Deb's beliefs because it is a strength builder, not the ax you intended to cut her down with.

phatso said...

by definition
homosexuality IS a perversion

look it up and use you straight mind (i doubt gays will understand)

Anonymous said...

Yes, all sinners will go to hell. Wide is the gate to destruction and MOST will go THERE. Straight and narrow is the gate to heaven and few will find it. So if the bible is correct and I KNOW IT IS. Most of the world will go to hell, not because God wanted them to but because they selected this path for themselves and refused to listen to their hearts and the Holy Spirit. You cannot live in sin and expect to be saved. We must turn away from sin and we are not supposed to even spend a lot of time with people who refuse to turn from their sin. They just want to infect us. We must hate the sin, love the sinner but there is a time when we must plant the seed and move on, God will do his work if these people will listen. Most homosexuals are so perverted and hard hearted and hateful they refuse any knowledge. They feel if the state OKs their marriage it is justified, nothing could be further from the truth. It is still a sin and abomination. Look at the perverted practices of "fisting", bath houses, promiscuity, drug and alcohol use and tell me this is a healthy, normal alternate lifestyle. Right. Like torture, murder and mahem are just a night of fun, but not a crime. It is disgusting and those gay parades show the sad, humiliating, pathetic state of these people's minds. I would rather be dead than parading myself around like that. Too bad their mind is warped and they do not grasp that they are on the doorstep of hell and when they do arrive, they will be very sorry for the worthless life they lived. This life is only a testing ground. When we are born Jesus casts a lot for us and so does Satan, we are the third lot, we decide which side we are on. With most people, the more you have to defend yourself and your lifestyle this is proof you yourself know that it is wrong.

~Deb said...

"...Look at the perverted practices of "fisting", bath houses, promiscuity, drug and alcohol use and tell me this is a healthy, normal alternate lifestyle. Right."

As if heterosexuals don't do the same practices? Are all heterosexuals without sin?

Are you without sin?

Why do you look at "all" homosexuals and think *SEX*?

What makes you assume that just because two people of the same gender are together, that they are sleeping around? That's some of the percentage, just as it is in the heterosexual communities.

So, I do agree with you when you say that it is destructive pathway for those who engage in casual sex, which can lead into many negative aspects, behaviors, diseases, etc., etc., -- but don't exclude the heterosexuals either.

Premarital sex is just as bad as homosexual sex.

What about a divorcee who remarries while her husband is still alive? That's considered adultery. What then?

Is everyone going to hell?

Your theory goes right out the window with your clouded judgments and assumptions. And that's all it is: a theory.

Anonymous said...

Do you believe that there is a way that people can believe that homosexuality is wrong but at the same time not be considered a hate-monger?

Anonymous said...

The fact is, Dani is right and you are wrong. You can't reconcile a Christian lifestyle and a homosexual one. Homosexuals choose to practice perversion. The confusion lies in the distinction between a good friend with whom you have an emotional bond and someone you have sex with. People are confused and perverted. I know that a lot of people accept this lifestyle in this day and age, but that does not make it right. The vast majority of Germans agreed with Adolf Hitler in the 30s, and we all know how that ended up.

I'm not comparing homosexuality to Hitler, just making a point about majority beliefs. Personally, I am an agnostic and I still believe that homosexuality is a perversion, as did Sigmund Freud. I also know that you can't call yourself a Christian and also wallow in a sinful, perverted lifestyle such as homosexuality. I have read the Bible front to back, and done extensive studies of some of the books, and I can tell you that both the OT and NT state in no uncertain terms that homosexuality and sexual perversion are sins. You can't say that it's all okay because Jesus died to save me from my sins. If you think about that logic you will see how ridiculous it is.

Anonymous said...

The author of dtrant.blogspot.com has written an excellent article. You have made your point and there is not much to argue about. It is like the following universal truth that you can not argue with: If, after much work, you manage to recover something you thought was permaneantly deleted or discarded, you will discover it isn't as useful as you thought it would be. (See #22) Thanks for the info.

Victor Levan Ministries said...

I was a homosexual for 10 years. Can you be gay and Christian, in my opinion absolutely, does it stop you from being all you can be for God? yes because you cannot live in sin, that goes for the heterosexual that is living with their partner and not married as well. Jesus said specifically that marriage is between and man and a woman. I have always believed that gay or straight. As the perversion goes, it may be a form of perversion, for example how do you take heterosexual guys and put them in porn with another guy for money? The love of money is the root of all evil. There are many things that I consider a perversion. Doesn't mean i am right. Some of the perversions that I think are also fit to the heterosexual life. Some one that is into bondage, orgies, etc.

Wiola said...

Deb, I just wanted to let you know that I fully agree with you.
And you know, haters gonna hate. That's what they do, and they sure are good at it.

Anonymous said...

Deb, Dani has it right. Just because you want to make excuses for your chosen lifestyle and try to pervert God's laws into your narrow interpretation, as a matter of faith it is evident that God requires us to love you as a person despite loathing your choice of lifestyle that does nothing but further separate you from Him. Ultimately, you have that "free will" that has been the bane of humanity as we all find times when the "spirit is willing but the flesh is weak".

As with all, we pray for guidance for everyone and look for forgiveness for our transgressions when we truly repent.

Being a Christian does not mean having to accept and condone every sort of deviancy and rolling over to those who argue for their deviancy. We will firmly stand for God's laws and resist the evil and corruption your lifestyle supports. Tough love.

Josh said...

What a narrow minded Christian anonymous is. If he or she only knew the Ten Commandments and how not to judge fellow Christians, they'd probably live a much more fulfilling life rather than focus on homosexuality. Sounds like hidden issues if you ask me. Regression is a very scary thing, as you've seen by the choices of Catholic priests. Everything comes out to the light, everything is revealed eventually.

Anonymous said...

The question for one is, is homosexuality a sin? One cannot be saved and a part of the Church (Body of Christ), sin, and be happy.

Rick said...

I am a sinner.
I curse.
I cheat my way to grades I don't deserve.
I lie.
I lust after women.
I masturbate.
I often think I am better than others because I am "more-Christian" than them.
I spread rumors about others.

Romans 6:23A reads, "For the wages of sin is death." My sins, those listed above and the countless unlisted ones, earned for me eternal damnation.

But, Romans 6:23B adds, "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." I am saved through Jesus Christ! Thanks be to God for he gives me the gift of eternal life even though I sin!

Now, what must a Christian who recognizes both his sinful nature and his salvation do? Colossians 3:10 reads, "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immortality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on a new self, which is being renewed in the image of its Creator."

Therefore, with the help of Jesus Christ I will strive to put on a new self. I will strive to put to death all those earthly desires that I want so badly to do.
I will try not to curse.
I will try not to cheat.
I will try not to lie.
I will try not to lust after women.
I will try not to masturbate.
I will try not to think myself better than others.
I will try not to spread rumors about others.
I will try not to be a sinner.

Since Jesus is in me, I try to live a holy, sinless life and I repent of my sins every day, asking Christ to help me fight the temptations of the devil.

Deb, as I have gathered, you do not think homosexuality is a sin. You are wrong. Romans 1:26-27 reads, "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

As well, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 reads, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." [Note: This verse and all others I have quoted are from the English Standard Translation of the Bible. In the ESV, there is a note after the term "men who practice homosexuality" that reads: "The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts."]

We are all sinful. I am no less sinful than anyone else. Thanks be to God for sending his son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for our sins. As a result of what he did for us, we must put on new selves that despise worldly sins. We must abhor lying, cheating, stealing, cursing, and all forms of sexual immorality, including homosexuality.

In Christ,
Rick

Deb said...

Romans focuses on the promiscuity of it all - not a "loving relationship' between two people. It goes for promiscuous heterosexual and homosexual people as well. The scripture clearly states that instead of lusts for a man and a woman they even ventured to their own sex --- numerous parters - orgies. You took that out of context.

I'm legally married through the eyes of God. I have a loving relationship and marriage with my wife of 17 years.

What about those who divorce and remarry when their ex spouse is still alive? That's a sin too. Do you think they're going to hell?

Where does Jesus say about homosexuality? NOTHING. And what does it ever say about masturbation? I'd be curious to read that scripture, unless of course you have a different version of the Bible.

The Old Law was abolished when Jesus died for us on the cross. If you do not think the law was abolished, then you don't believe that what Jesus did was true --- removing our sins. He knew that humankind could not last with these laws, so the old law was abolished and our sins were forgiven. Have faith.

Here… Look at Galatians chapter two verses 17 through 21:

But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God’s approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me an gave himself for me. I am not one for those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

After we were freed from the law, we are made right with God through faith alone- and nothing else. For those who strongly feel that homosexuality is a sin, I urge you to read this next scripture and explain to me what you feel or interpret it to mean.

Galatians 3:24-29
Let me put it in another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God. But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. So you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are ALL Christians—you are one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you.

Deb said...

It's all through FAITH that saves us -- not by abiding in old laws through guilt. Guilt is of the devil. Fear is of the devil. God wants us to live an abundant life full of love and happiness ---- not to treat his sacrifice as something that was done for nothing.

Faith.

Rick said...

Romans 1:26-27 includes the phrase, Men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men. This clearly indicates homosexuality.

Please explain how this is to be translated as "promiscuity" and not as the trained-in-Greek translators of the Bible have translated it.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 specifically calls homosexuality immoral and unrighteous, both the original Greek and the translated English. Now, one can either look to the inspired wisdom of the writers of the Bible OR one can make up their own translation to suit their needs.

One can look to the faithful translation provided by the Biblical translators who have been trained in Greek and Hebrew OR one can make up their own translation to suit their needs.

Remember the story of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 2:16-17; 3:1; 3:6
[2:16-17]And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

[3:1]Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?"

[3:6]So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.


Eve knew the word of God. However, she decided that she knew better than God. She ate the fruit. In the same way, the word of God is clear concerning all sexual practices outside of heterosexual relations within marriage. All sexual practices that are not heterosexual and not within marriage are sinful.

By denying the sinful nature of homosexuality (or promiscuity, or masturbation, or orgies), one claims that he/she is without sin and therefore, without need for a Savior. 1 John 1:5-10 reads, This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

***Post continues below [1/3]***

Rick said...

Deb, you are misunderstanding what Christ did concerning the Law. Matthew 5:17-19 reads, [Jesus said] "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

The first sentence makes it clear. Christ did not come to abolish our need to strive to fulfill the law. Instead, he came to perfectly keep the law so that when we fail to keep it perfectly, we can ask him for forgiveness. (There cannot be forgiveness without sin. There cannot be sin without a law to break. Therefore, the admission of sin and the need for constant forgiveness proves that we are still living under the law.)

The second sentence makes it clear that the law will not be abolished until the end of the world and Christ's second coming. Until then, we are still under the law.

In the final sentence, Jesus warns us not to relax the commandments of the law because the law still applies.

You use the Galatians 3:24-29 to further the claim that we are free from the law. We are now, through Jesus, free from the curse of the law, eternal death. However, we still must strive to keep the law, for the law was instituted by God. If we were under no obligation to the law, we would be free to murder, lie, steal, cheat, be promiscuous, etc. I know that you do not believe we are free to commit these anti-Law acts, so why do you believe that we are free to commit one specific anti-Law act?

***Post continues below [2/3]***

Rick said...

I will now also quote Galatians 2:16-21.
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to by justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Justification is the process by which we are made worthy of salvation. It is why we are justified to enter Heaven. You are right, if you try to justify yourself under the law, you will fail, I will fail. We all will fail if we attempt to get into Heaven under the law. We are justified then through the work that Christ did on the cross, not by keeping the law. Does that mean we should not strive to keep the law? Of course not. This brings up the difference between justification and sanctification.

Now, justification is an entirely different thing than sanctification. Sanctification is the process by which God makes man holy after his Son justified our entry into Heaven. The result of sanctification is that men who, by faith, know that they are justified in Christ will strive to keep the law, as God requires of them. Of course, they know they will fail, but they will strive to keep it for that is what God wants of them.

Sanctification is exactly what the Galatians writer is referring to when he wrote, So that I might live to God. and It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. After assuring us of our justification, the writer points out the next step: becoming sanctified. Live a life that is worthy of God, not because it will get you into Heaven, but because you are already a member of the heavenly host. As the Colossians writer urges, Put on a new self!

Now, concerning faith without works (or faith without an attempt to keep the law), James 2:14&17 read, What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

The Bible is clear. Have faith because you are justified entry into heaven through Christ and not by your works. And since you are justified and assured salvation if you believe in Christ, work to keep the law.

Finally, no where in the Bible are we promised earthly "abundant lives full of love and happiness." On the contrary, Luke 9:23 reads, And he [Jesus] said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Jesus specifically instructs us to deny our (sinful) selves and take up our cross. This verse surely does not create an image full of earthly happiness.

You are claiming that Christians are promised "abundant lives full of love and happiness" on earth. However, in John 18:36, Christ says, "My kingdom is not of this world." The abundant lives full of love and happiness that you are referring to are actually those promised to us in heaven. John 14:2-3 reads, In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

***End of post [3/3]***

Deb said...

Hi again, Rick...

The scripture in Romans 1:26-27 that you refer to -- “Men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men. This clearly indicates homosexuality” ---- and how does that relate or “translate” to promiscuity?

Being consumed with passion is not a loving relationship or marriage between two people. Passion and lust usually refers to reckless sex in the Bible. In the book of Romans, they were consumed with orgies -- which also means that there was also same sex relations due to the sexual nature of it all.

When you point out Corinthians targeting homosexuality, they also point out this scripture that most Christians who are against homosexuality seem to leave out:

“There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.” ~1 Corinthians 6-11

It is by our faith in Christ’s death that we are all saved.

You pointed out Genesis --- but this is the Old Testament. The OT is a great way to learn of the history, however not a tool to use. If so, then all men would have to have beards and eating shellfish would be an abomination.

Do you eat shellfish? Have you ever? Do you think it’s a sin? In Leviticus, it’s an abomination. Even slavery was “ok” in the Old Testament as well.

By denying the “sinful nature” of homosexuality is certainly not saying I am without sin. I am a sinner through and through. Everyone is. Homosexuality - or I should say, my marriage with my wife of 17 years is certainly not a sin. We are not having orgies (not that anyone knows about) so I think I’m okay in that area. ;)

I totally understand where you are coming from, but we have to agree to disagree due to the many interpretations, misunderstandings and translations of the good book.

Here are a couple of scriptures that I love...

"Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:1-4). 

"But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.' So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way." (Romans 14:10-13)

Thank you for taking the time to comment, Rick.

God bless!

Anonymous said...

(sarcasm) I'm glad none of you homosexuals judge anybody else! That means if some pedophile wants to babysit your children you would not consider their lifestyle when you decide to hire them. I can think of a hundred reasons why we need to judge people. The Bible aside, common sense tells us we need to judge. Maybe you guys have a connotation of the word "judge" that is not what it really means???

SmileyGrl752 said...

I agree with Dani. There are several examples of homosexuality being wrong in the Bible.

In Leviticus 18:22, it says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with a woman: it is an abomination."

In Genesis 19, God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah because of their wickedness of homosexuality.

In Romans 1:26;27, it says "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for ones.In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 states "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Lastly, in 1 Timothy 1:9-10 says "We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing , for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."

I read my Bible front to back, and I don't see anywhere where God supports homosexuality. Yes, we are called to love homosexuals, but that doesn't mean we need to support their behavior. God loves murderers, rapists, and terrorists. Am I full of hate too because I don't support them either?

It's like when you have a child who makes bad choices, like coloring on the wall, or doing drugs. You love your child, but don't support their behavior.

I find it sad that you called Dani full of hate simply because she does not agree with your lifestyle. She never once shouted (used all caps), called you names, threatened you, and you call her full of hate. I feel like most gays are manipulators- if we agree with your behavior, we're cool, but if we dare to disagree, we're hateful bigots. We better agree with you or else! Whatever happened to respecting someone else's opinion, and agreeing to disagree?

SmileyGrl752 said...

Also, it says that in the beginning God created man and woman. "So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." Genesis 1:27

Genesis 2:24 says "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." It never says anything about a man leaving his parents and being united to a husband, or a wife leaving her folks and being one flesh with her wife.

Ephesians 5:31 states the same thing: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."


Deb said...

Nope. Totally disagree with you. When Jesus died on the cross for us, the law was abolished. The Old Testament is great for reference and points out basic laws like the ten commandments, but homosexuality is not a sin. I've pointed this out in this article, where I break down Corinthian's reference to homosexuality as well as Romans. Also, Genesis is the old law. If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins, then you have very little faith. Read this article though --- just see the breakdown of what I mean. Then you can just disagree and throw it out. At least read it for entertainment purposes. ;)


It's called, "Bound by the Law."

http://www.debrapasquella.com/2007/06/bound-by-law.html?spref=tw

(Just in case I didn't hyperlink it correctly.)

Thanks for stopping by!